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ChessMess
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Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Tuesday, July, 03, 2012 9:14 AM
............. .............

So in episode "Identity" (http://disney.go.com/xd/tron/videos/), its revealed that if a program loses his disc his memories will fade (glitch) and eventually be totally lost (but can be restored with the return of the disc).

I believe we've all reached this conclusion before but to reiterate, a disc for a program is like having a long term data store. Now you can call that data store a USB, or a sector on a Hard Disk, or location in EPROM, or a section of tape on a cassette tape or reel-to-reel, (am I dating myself yet?)... doesn't matter. The disc acts as a proxy.

So once lost the program retains all its local variables, but as it moves around and some globals/singletons/session get overwritten with null data, he only acts within the confines of the programming being executed at that point in time. He may loop, like the program who couldn't get out of the 'Not the games... not the games...' loop in Legacy, he may crash and self-derez, but typically they become a stray, open to the suggestions of others.

Pretty cool.

So it seems like Clu's repurpose process might simply be removing one's disc and formatting the programs original data store, then writing in the data that makes the world reflect the way in which he wants the program to act. Luckily Tron still had some data in ROM that indicated he 'fights for the users!'. His very core routines more likely, such that even if the data was corrupt they couldn't make him operate outside of those core routines.

His full repurpose which changes programs to guards is a wipe/rewrite of the programs original code. Kind of like loading the program in an IDE and then going to Main() and selecting all the code and hitting delete, then writing new code. He can't create a new program, but he can repurpose (reprogram) an existing one. That's what he was doing to the programs in the staging area before the portal. He had a base image of a 'model soldier' and overwrote the original programs with the base image. poof. insta-soldier.



 
DarthMeow504
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Posts: 128
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Tuesday, July, 24, 2012 12:51 PM
That makes sense. Back in the old days on the C64, certain computer magazines would come with small BASIC programs you could type in yourself and run. It was one of the ways I'd amuse myself with the machine until I could afford a disk drive and play real games.

Without a disk drive, those programs could not be saved and only existed in active memory. They could run as long as they were in RAM, typing them in was the same as loading them from a disk as far as the computer was concerned. When the computer was turned off, it was gone.

So just like those typed-in BASIC programs could run without a save file, a Grid program could run without a disc. They're not saved, they can't back up or update their data, and they only run in active memory. If the system reboots, they're toast.

Good logical computer thinking there.

 
MCPcomputer
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Posts: 1,570
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Sunday, July, 29, 2012 12:27 AM

Pretty cool and fun fact!! I've been wondering about the Discs...

Also This is so cool..
I still need to get my discs modded..
and get the Kevin Flynn Disc modded ...

If this is the case I better not lose my Disc then!

End of Line
"I want him in the games until he dies playing" -MCP
The new Master Control Program return for Tron 3! watch now!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByKpNPAIsa0
 
Pilgrim1099
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Posts: 596
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Sunday, July, 29, 2012 9:40 AM
DarthMeow504 Wrote:That makes sense. Back in the old days on the C64, certain computer magazines would come with small BASIC programs you could type in yourself and run. It was one of the ways I'd amuse myself with the machine until I could afford a disk drive and play real games.

Without a disk drive, those programs could not be saved and only existed in active memory. They could run as long as they were in RAM, typing them in was the same as loading them from a disk as far as the computer was concerned. When the computer was turned off, it was gone.

So just like those typed-in BASIC programs could run without a save file, a Grid program could run without a disc. They're not saved, they can't back up or update their data, and they only run in active memory. If the system reboots, they're toast.

Good logical computer thinking there.

You're thinking of COMPUTE! and RUN magazines from the 80s that had pages of machine language lines to be transcribed by keys. I remember those days very well.

 
DarthMeow504
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Posts: 128
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Sunday, July, 29, 2012 11:49 AM
Pilgrim1099 Wrote:You're thinking of COMPUTE! and RUN magazines from the 80s that had pages of machine language lines to be transcribed by keys. I remember those days very well.

Yep, though I only remember the BASIC ones because I couldn't even touch machine language then or now. I might have been reading some of the variants meant for younger readers too, as I was in elementary school when I got my first C64.

I remember the non-Commodore magazines would have a single BASIC program to type in and then a set of instructions for how to modify the code for which machine you were running and the minor variant between BASIC versions. They'd list Atari 400, Apple ][, C64, and other models and the appropriate changes to include. I would always snerk at the sections for TRS-80 and TI 99/4A imagining how much it must suck to own one of those machines. LOL

That makes me wonder now, from a TRON perspective would the programs running on / living in those less prestigious and capable machines be the equivalent of poor slum dwellers, eking out a marginal existence under the feet of their middle-class Apple and Commodore and Atari (and later, IBM) brethren? And of course above them, the elite of professional mainframe and server systems looking down from their ivory towers on all the common personal computer programs far below.

That of course raises the question, what's the cutoff point? At what point is a machine with an IC too simple to support a Grid? Is there a mathematician program in a room full of virtual abacuses made of light and linked with circuit lines? In your digital watch is there a virtual drummer tapping out a beat to keep time while circuit trails take each beat as light pulses to a virtual sky that is the display?

It's imagination games like this that make the paradigm of the original TRON so compelling.

 
Kat
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Posts: 2,289
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Sunday, July, 29, 2012 12:57 PM
It doesn't seem to be consistent with the first film, however.

In T82, programs receive discs for the Games only; it seems to be mostly used as a weapon, perhaps a score-tracking device (when Flynn first sees Tron, he holds up his disc after he wins his match, as if to have his win recorded on his disc). Yori does not have a disc. I always forget to pay attention to see if Flynn does; presumably yes as he received Games training, but you never see him use it.

The only part of T82 that doesn't jive with this premise is the part where Alan loads info onto Tron's disc, but that's not necessarily inconsistent; we don't know if the update is actually to Tron's code, or if it's simply something that makes the disc robust enough to destroy the MCP.


So I wonder what changed between the Encom server in T82 and Flynn's system in T:L so that a disc was an essential accessory to a program and had a different function. (Unless programs did not originally all have discs and this was changed when Clu took over, to be used as a tracking device and perhaps because all programs were considered potential Games fodder. Which makes sense when you consider that programs without discs-- compare it to "papers" if you will-- were rounded up as criminals.)


(I'll admit this is another direction in which Disney's gone that I don't agree with. To me the T82 method made a lot more sense. Otherwise it's essentially the equivalent of keeping your DNA and your personality in your wallet, and if you lose your wallet, your body [and mind] is helpless on its own and doesn't contain its own information about you. Huh? I always saw the disc as more of a memory storage device-- perhaps a backup; think flash drive as opposed to hard drive-- and an interface.)
What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
KingJ.exe
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Posts: 340
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Sunday, July, 29, 2012 10:31 PM
In the first film, I never noticed that certain programs didn't have disks. I'm wondering if the "not every program has a disk" thing was a sort of retcon, in that all programs had (or were supposed to have) disks in the first film. It seems to me that it was simply an inherent weakness of the grid. Or, another theory I had, what if no one but the program who owns the disc can catch it when it's in weapon mode, unless it was thrown in weapon mode by someone who stole it? Or maybe Cobalt didn't throw Beck's disk when he used it in battle.
Everybody go join End of Line, an awesome TRON Roleplay forum! http://troneol.b1.jcink.com/index.php?
 
Kat
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Posts: 2,289
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Monday, July, 30, 2012 8:23 AM
In T82, if you recall, when conscripts were lined up for the Games, they were told "you will receive an identity disc." This assumes they didn't have them before-- which I considered confirmed when I saw Yori didn't seem to have one.

I never paid attention to see if Clu1 did, and like I said once I got into the movie I kept forgetting to check and see if Flynn still had his.


But no, I don't think they retconned the first film.


Actually, do we ever see anybody USING one besides Tron (and Sark, at the end)? (I know, there's the guys Tron is fighting in his disc match, but that's for the Games) Most of the guards seem to have some sort of staves and such; I'm trying to remember if we ever see them using their discs as weapons. It would almost make me wonder if it was even common to use a disc as a weapon outside of the Games-- it could be that Tron used it exclusively because it was all he had. The only thing that wouldn't fit this theory is that if that were so, you'd think Sark would be better-equipped at the end, then, if the disc were, say, more of a "back-up" weapon than anything else. Interesting.

(Unfortunately, I think that's another one of those things in the first film that you just can't think about as hard as you would if it were in T:L, because rather than it being that way for a possible specific reason, the truth is just probably that they didn't think about it that hard... seems to be the way of a lot of things in T82, as I've said before. They were just like "duuuuuude... wouldn't it be cool if...?" and threw it in. Oh well. It WAS cool. We just don't know why. )
What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Pilgrim1099
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Posts: 596
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Monday, July, 30, 2012 9:39 AM
KingJ.exe Wrote:In the first film, I never noticed that certain programs didn't have disks. I'm wondering if the "not every program has a disk" thing was a sort of retcon, in that all programs had (or were supposed to have) disks in the first film. It seems to me that it was simply an inherent weakness of the grid. Or, another theory I had, what if no one but the program who owns the disc can catch it when it's in weapon mode, unless it was thrown in weapon mode by someone who stole it? Or maybe Cobalt didn't throw Beck's disk when he used it in battle.

My theory is that the ENCOM 511 system had a different set of regulations and 'laws of nature' whereas Flynn's server was a bit more, shall I say, independent with some changes. I could surmise that the operating system on Flynn's server is more likely different and advanced from ENCOM's.

Although, as CEO, he would have access to the latest hardware and sneak them off to his private lab for experimental testing because what he had were somewhat 'off the shelves' from ENCOM's R&D department, assembling them into his own system.

ENCOM is still a powerful company with a lot of money flowing in and out, therefore, the corporation could afford technology much more advanced than Flynn's.

Think about it. AFTER he got trapped in 1989, he was no longer in the corporate picture while ENCOM's tech became more advanced wheras Flynn's server stopped 'advancing'. When he disappeared, that was the cut off point there.

Had Flynn not been trapped in the Grid, he would've continued his work in the lab, beefing up the system even more and that probably would've made Clu more powerful, probably along with other programs as well.

So in that sense, the way they wore their disks in T82 were limited in that fashion, but as programs advanced in the newer systems, they had more flexibility. From floppy drives as one time load, unload and RUN/EXECUTE to the current standard of using flash drives to boot up the app in seconds.

Therefore, programs are essentially executing their tasks with their discs in some fashion accordingly to their written function.

 
Pilgrim1099
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Posts: 596
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Monday, July, 30, 2012 9:42 AM
Kat Wrote:In T82, if you recall, when conscripts were lined up for the Games, they were told "you will receive an identity disc." This assumes they didn't have them before-- which I considered confirmed when I saw Yori didn't seem to have one.

I never paid attention to see if Clu1 did, and like I said once I got into the movie I kept forgetting to check and see if Flynn still had his.


But no, I don't think they retconned the first film.


Actually, do we ever see anybody USING one besides Tron (and Sark, at the end)? (I know, there's the guys Tron is fighting in his disc match, but that's for the Games) Most of the guards seem to have some sort of staves and such; I'm trying to remember if we ever see them using their discs as weapons. It would almost make me wonder if it was even common to use a disc as a weapon outside of the Games-- it could be that Tron used it exclusively because it was all he had. The only thing that wouldn't fit this theory is that if that were so, you'd think Sark would be better-equipped at the end, then, if the disc were, say, more of a "back-up" weapon than anything else. Interesting.

(Unfortunately, I think that's another one of those things in the first film that you just can't think about as hard as you would if it were in T:L, because rather than it being that way for a possible specific reason, the truth is just probably that they didn't think about it that hard... seems to be the way of a lot of things in T82, as I've said before. They were just like "duuuuuude... wouldn't it be cool if...?" and threw it in. Oh well. It WAS cool. We just don't know why. )

I think the discs in the Games were like tracking beacons to watch conscripts and in case they were trying to escape. It made it easier for "Big Brother" MCP to watch everyone. But in T82, no program ever used more than one disc, not even Tron.

In Legacy, he had one disc, until that fateful encounter with Clu and his Black Guard, which I think he un-intentionally grabbed one disc and used both. He did'nt mean to do it, but it was the spur of the moment that he began to pull a "Rinzler".

I also suspect that the producers in the set wanted a Tron version of "Darth Maul". Get it?

Double-lightsabers (Darth Maul--1999) to Double Discs (Rinzler-2011).


 
Goat!
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Posts: 39
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Monday, July, 30, 2012 10:55 AM
Maybe it's the fanboy in me, but I think there is also a programmatic reason for Rinzler having two discs.

I, for one, don't think that Clu is capable of fully re-purposing Tron. As 'the other' high level program, I have to think that there were checks/balances put in place to prevent either one from destroying or changing the other.

That being said, my current theory is that one of Rinzler's discs is Tron's original disc. The second disc is like a 'Service Pack'... an EVIL Service Pack. Potentially one that contains a permissions change from the program itself, to Clu. If you think about it, the Rinzler character maintains all of the same skills of Tron, it's just that now he directly obeys Clu (as per the Grid scene in which Clu is spinning those 'magic balls'), as opposed to implementing security protocols himself.

 
epicpwner333
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Posts: 10
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Monday, July, 30, 2012 12:27 PM
Well...judging from the footage from the Tron: Uprising preview of the episode "Scars", I think Tron gets his second disc you see in Legacy from Dyson. Just saiyin.

 
Kat
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RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Monday, July, 30, 2012 9:56 PM
Goat! Wrote:Maybe it's the fanboy in me, but I think there is also a programmatic reason for Rinzler having two discs.

I, for one, don't think that Clu is capable of fully re-purposing Tron. As 'the other' high level program, I have to think that there were checks/balances put in place to prevent either one from destroying or changing the other.

That being said, my current theory is that one of Rinzler's discs is Tron's original disc. The second disc is like a 'Service Pack'... an EVIL Service Pack. Potentially one that contains a permissions change from the program itself, to Clu. If you think about it, the Rinzler character maintains all of the same skills of Tron, it's just that now he directly obeys Clu (as per the Grid scene in which Clu is spinning those 'magic balls'), as opposed to implementing security protocols himself.


From one standpoint: I figure the two discs simply made him more badass-- that is, perhaps a more efficient fighter, and more intimidating as well. Plus he can always have a disc in hand if he plays his cards right-- he may never be caught in a situation where you've thrown your disc and while you're waiting for it to return to you, your enemy attacks and you're without your weapon.


From another standpoint, if you go with Disney's apparent theory that the disc is what makes the program and if they don't have the disc, their personality goes away-- then it was probably a backup. If that disc is the only thing keeping Tron rectified, it's a damn good idea to make sure he has a spare in case he loses one. I guess Clu just didn't count on him losing both.


Or, hell, it's possible that Clu's rectifications of Tron took up so much disc space that one wasn't enough, and the code is split between them.


(Either way: like an ID disc RAID setup [the type depending on which of these scenarios you wish to run with]??).

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Bold Face 7
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Posts: 4
RE: Important aspect of Identity Discs & Strays revealed
on Thursday, August, 09, 2012 2:40 PM


 
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