digit Wrote:I think it is kind of cool the way they kind of portrayed Clu as being a semi-sympathetic character at the end. I mean he had the chance to off Flynn, and he couldn't bring himself to do it. Was a nice change of pace from the usual black and white villain that we usually get in science fiction.

Have you read Tron: Betrayal? Gives you a whole new view of all the characters and far less black-and-white than the film. You'll feel sorry for Clu, you'll wonder if Flynn's really a git, you'll think the Isos may've had an attitude problem that didn't help their cause, and you'll even wonder about Tron.order abortion pill abortion pill buy online where to buy abortion pill

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Both of my library cards are expired. I don't have time to jump through the necessary hoops to renew them right now. My mother has recently had major surgery and has stage 4 internal cancer that is spreading. It's not happening.

Thanks.

laphtiya Wrote:Yeah you kind of get that "I am too busy to play with you Clu I have a new and even BETTER toy to play with now!!" feel about Flynn, you can kind of relate in a way because we've all done that in one way or another. I never saw Clu as pure evil, I saw him as someone lashing out at being cast to one side and told that everything he stands for is no longer valid and pointless. I think I'd do the same in his position if I am perfectly honest........probably why in a "what sic-fi character are you?" quiz I took I ended up being Clu from Legacy :P

I don't know that I saw Flynn that way, as having Sam as a shiny new toy and casting off Clu... he was just overwhelmed and had too much to deal with. I thought he was definitely quite flip about the Grid, but it may be that he couldn't get out of the mindset of seeing that as a magical place and he just didn't want to believe things could go bad/Tron couldn't handle it/Clu (who even in T:L Flynn still describes as "he's me" so he clearly never stops seeing Clu as an avatar*) could be bad/yet another thing could be heaped on his plate. I don't know that he necessarily believed everything was okay, but he needed or wanted to believe that.



Also, it may have been that he simply didn't think it mattered-- if it went down in flames, it was still just a program world. I was musing a while back that I think users still don't really see the computer world as being as important as the real world-- you don't see Flynn or Sam fighting for the sake of the programs. In T82, Flynn's fighting to get himself out of there and to get his info. In T:L, Sam's fighting to save his dad and himself, and Flynn only sacrifices himself to protect Sam, while he wasn't willing to do so to protect the programs of the Grid who were under Clu's thumb*.

You never really see them saying "hey, I believe in what you guys are doing and I'm going to help you." Of course, they may be right to do so-- why would a human life be worth any number of program lives? We delete them ourselves on a regular basis, so users may not hold them on the same level as human lives.

*It seems Flynn never learns his lesson, eh? All that time, and part of the reason he got into so much trouble was because he always seemed to see programs as "less than" and still after all that time he couldn't come to see that Clu was his own entity and not like his own digital Mini-Me, didn't see the programs as important, etc. (had he sacrificed himself previously, Sam never would've even gotten into that whole mess).

(I once wondered what would happen if Tron had to make a choice between saving one user, or saving the whole Grid. On one hand, his directive is to protect the Grid; on the other, he "fights for the users." I'm not sure which he'd pick.)



Now, Clu... I saw him the way you describe in T:L. In T:B it was a whole different story (literally). In that he was just some guy given a job, which he was trying to do as best he could, and then everything started to go to hell. Every piece of evidence he had pointed to one cause for the turmoil, and nobody would listen to him, and nobody wanted to do anything about it. He watched programs dying and living in fear. Tron just kept saying "wait for Flynn." (and that's the part where I'm not happy with Tron; he just sat back and let shit happen and then sorta cleaned it up after the fact instead of trying to prevent it in the first place.)

Flynn either didn't show up or when he did, said "oh it'll be okay" and did nothing. The Iso population may have been growing exponentially (we don't know) and while Clu saw them as a problem for the other programs (who, face it, were there first and Clu probably felt a greater responsibility to their safety), Flynn thought they were great and refused to see what Clu saw (whether Clu was right or wrong, we don't know. I would like to think he's wrong, but... in T:L there was no sign of the instability plaguing the Grid in T:B, so who knows?)

And then Clu goes overboard and takes the whole thing way too far. He's got Flynn's arrogance, plus I imagine Flynn may also be the sort of guy who likes to be top dog so Clu probably inherited that as well. Couple that with frustration, anger, and getting onto a power trip, and the dude goes off the deep end.



And that's why I say T:B is like a totally different story than T:L. It changes the story exponentially (aside from the inconsistencies we've noted in the past). Clu goes from nutter bad guy to extremely misguided dude who basically got shat on. The conflict goes from "Flynn and the Isos are innocent and Clu attacks out of nowhere" to "Flynn buries his head in the sand too long and the Isos may have been a problem/may have had a population explosion for all we know and they certainly seem to exhibit an attitude."

That's why I'm not even sure if I like it. I don't want to view a film and think I know the story, only to have the filmmakers backtrack and give me another piece of media that puts the story across as something completely different. I would've liked each on their own. To put two quite different scenarios together and say they're one and the same and sorry, if you have one and not the other you don't get the whole story, sucks to be you... not so very cool. The pair seem simply disjointed, like one's an afterthought, since none of the events of T:B are even remotely hinted at in T:L. It feels sort of like retconning, TBH with you (though I'm not sure which came out first).

I'll say I almost think they meant the two for two different audiences (I know, I've said this before). T:L is meant for the general public. It's a generic action film that doesn't require a lot of deep thought; you know who the good guys and bad guys are, and it's pretty black-and-white. T:B seems more for the fan who would be likely to seek out additional sources, there's a lot more gray area, a lot more thought involved (many of the situations mirror real life conflicts and really make you examine how you feel about things like immigration, eugenics, etc.) but you do it in a safe fictional space; it almost makes you uncomfortable.

It's like they said "hey, we want to explore telling the story in a different way" and T:B is what they came up with. (I've done that with my fics before-- "hey what if this happened differently, how would the story change?" but I've never presented both versions as canon-- one is the story, and the other is something I was messing with to amuse myself.)

I think CLU's issue from the outset was a skewed sense of perfection, because Flynn's sense of perfection was skewed when he made him. His sense of what was "perfect" was refined when the ISOs came along, and CLU just couldn't see it. That, and coupled with the fact the Flynn was all of a sudden a single dad with a massive company on his hands meant that he had less time for the Grid. CLU felt slighted, not only because Flynn wasnt giving them as much time, but because he couldn't understand how the ISOs fit into the perfect system. So really, all along it was Flynn's fault, but not intentionally. Hence the apology at Legacy's end.

Kat Wrote:I wonder if Flynn even defined "perfect" when he made Clu. It may not even have been a case of Flynn being wrong and then learning better, but simply different interpretations. I mean, tell somebody to make something perfect-- you'd better choose your person carefully because their idea of perfect and yours might be terribly different. Flynn might think "perfect" = "it's cool and runs smoothly and everyone is happy." Clu, on the other hand, apparently thinks differently-- both in terms of what "perfect" means and how to achieve it..

Or you had better tell them what you mean by 'perfect'. Of course, a human knows to ask that. If I told you to 'make me a perfect cake', the first thing you would probably do would be to ask me what flavor I wanted, what type of frosting, what I want in the center, etc. But Clu wouldn't ask. It probably wouldn't even have occurred to him that there could be more than one definition of 'perfect' He'd just go make the cake to his idea of perfection, even if said idea had peanut butter in the center(peanut butter makes me sick, so it's obviously not in my concept of a perfect cake).

KingJ.exe Wrote: ShadowSpark Wrote: Kat Wrote:I wonder if Flynn even defined "perfect" when he made Clu. It may not even have been a case of Flynn being wrong and then learning better, but simply different interpretations. I mean, tell somebody to make something perfect-- you'd better choose your person carefully because their idea of perfect and yours might be terribly different. Flynn might think "perfect" = "it's cool and runs smoothly and everyone is happy." Clu, on the other hand, apparently thinks differently-- both in terms of what "perfect" means and how to achieve it.. Or you had better tell them what you mean by 'perfect'. Of course, a human knows to ask that. If I told you to 'make me a perfect cake', the first thing you would probably do would be to ask me what flavor I wanted, what type of frosting, what I want in the center, etc. But Clu wouldn't ask. It probably wouldn't even have occurred to him that there could be more than one definition of 'perfect' He'd just go make the cake to his idea of perfection, even if said idea had peanut butter in the center(peanut butter makes me sick, so it's obviously not in my concept of a perfect cake). From what I see in Legacy and Betrayal, he never did. Which would mean that we can chalk the whole fiasco up to.... User Error.

Of course. It's always User Error of some sort or other.abortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion

ShadowSpark Wrote:Or you had better tell them what you mean by 'perfect'. Of course, a human knows to ask that. If I told you to 'make me a perfect cake', the first thing you would probably do would be to ask me what flavor I wanted, what type of frosting, what I want in the center, etc. But Clu wouldn't ask. It probably wouldn't even have occurred to him that there could be more than one definition of 'perfect' He'd just go make the cake to his idea of perfection, even if said idea had peanut butter in the center(peanut butter makes me sick, so it's obviously not in my concept of a perfect cake).

Exactly. But not everyone would ask. Especially if they thought they knew what you wanted. And I think Flynn probably thought it would be safe to assume Clu defined it the same way, and Clu thought it would be safe to assume he knew what Flynn meant.

ShadowSpark Wrote: Of course. It's always User Error of some sort or other.

Essentially, yes. Always a PICNIC error (Problem In Chair, Not In Computer) somewhere. If it's not the user at the terminal this second, then it's a coding error from the programmer. What you get out is only as good as what you put in. You're only as strong as your weakest coding. Etc.

Oh, in T:B, it's very obvious that was Clu's concern (that's what I mean when I say the conflict between that and the film were completely different. In one, Clu was largely just a power-hungry wanker. In the graphic novel, he was a guy backed into a corner). As I said in an earlier post, he was supposed to keep this system running smoothly, and then all of a sudden it was getting to be a dangerous place and he was watching programs die and stuff. Nobody was backing Clu up, Tron kept wanting to believe Flynn would fix it and was a bit too forgiving (probably a mix of overbelief in the users and in giving his friend a bit of a pass, esp. if he understood that Flynn was overburdened), and Flynn was just so overwhelmed that something had to give, and it happened to be the Grid.


Actually, in my OC fic, it even comes out that Grid etiquette dictates that you talk about the "outside world" or the "user world" instead of the "real world," because that's insulting, of course, to programs whose world IS the only real world they know.