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 ElecTRONIC questions... very interesting!


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Program BASIC
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ElecTRONIC questions... very interesting!

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 8:25 AM
Whoa, the thread title actually fits.

Okay, lets go straight to the POINTS here:

1- The LASER BEAM. Basically, it could disintegrate an object in million of molecular packages, absorbing them and "digitalizing them"... it sounds a little bit confusing, 'cause there are TWO possible options to better picture the concept, each retaining a very different meaning in relation with the other one:

a- The object is digitalized - "computed" molecula by molecula. It's just a computing operation, a sort of TRANSLATION in data. It would mean FLYNN became the "program of himself - the program of his own genetic structure", ergo an human program.
In the while, the REAL molecular structure remained disjointed in fragments, suspended in a quantic limbo around the Laser Beam gun's area. From a technical point of you, the REAL FLYNN is no longer, but his consciousness slides into the Digital world FLYNN, a mere reflex of the real one.

b- The object is CONVERTED into digital form --- LITERALLY. It would mean FLYNN's genetic code became a digital code --- flesh turned into energy.
So we can suppose the yellow apple the scientists used as "first digitalized object ever" appeared in TRON's world as... a gianteous yellow apple.
Following the thesis, the DIGITAL world FLYNN and the HUMAN FLYNN are totally the same kind of entity, only virtually "read" with different languages.
Maybe, Flynn's powers into Tron's world could make valid this point.

Remember when Alan asked to Lora: "Can I go to Hawaii ? " - from Lora's answer it sounded like a virtual reality program, kind of. Probably, this sequence also give more "credibility" to the second point.

What's the deal?

2- How really does a "program" work in TRON's world? For example CROM - he was a business program. Well, how can he compute the data for his User if he gets an humanoid form? How can he really transmits the results of his work to the User?
I think every action we make our programs do in the "Real World" is going to be translated into a "physical", almost methaphorical way in Tron's World.

3- I don't understand one thing at all. We all use programs like QUICKTIME and so on. It means there is a COPY of that program in every computer, doesn't it?
So we can truly suppose if Alan gave us the disk to download TRON in our PC, we're going to create a TRON's perfect, identical clone in our computer/system. It would mean every program we see in the ENCOM system is *NOT* unique. Isn't it?
What's about if a program would encounter the copy of himself? Would be there "visual"/behaviour differences? we all know programs are HUMAN look-like!

At the beginning of the movie, we see SARK riding a lightcycle INSIDE FLYNN HOUSE's videogame. That wasn't the movie SARK at all... but SARK's clone inside the videogame... the SARK we learnt to hate was INSIDE the ENCOM computer system !!!!!!!!!

Anyway, MCP intimed SARK, menacing to close him in a pocket computer... totally un-linked to the ENCOM system (it's a pocket machine!) --- so I really don't know.

Consequencially, were TRON, FLYNN and RAN transferred into the videogames - in the infamous lightcycles scene - or just into a game grid belonging to the ENCOM system itself?

That's all, for now.

Am I a smart guy? I think no one asked these questions...

TRON RULES !!!!!!!!!!!!!

is program's best friend. Don't betray it --- NEVER!
 
tronclone
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Posts: 42
Wow good questions

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 10:30 AM
Let me see if I can provide any info:
when the laser scans Flynn, it is a molecular deconstructor system designed to take a 'Real World'
3-D object and capture it into the digital world. Therefore, Flynn is captured into the digitalworld and held in it's memory. He is able to move around in the digital world, which was personified for story telling purposes, viewers could relate to seeing a human looking character instead of a truely digital form.
Now since TRON is a program, he could be installed on other comuters but in the movie stories' case, he is on a network server, so TRON is available to any computer on the network and doesn't have to be installed onto specific computers. Now if TRON is installed on a stand alone computer, it would exist independantly and not be aware of the original program's existance. Now if that stand alone PC were to get connected to , say the Inthernet and encountered another copy of TRON, it would probably, but maybe not, be able to exist simultaneously (whew!).

I think I'm a Clone Now

 
Sketch
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Hmmm...

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 11:21 AM
The copy question has always bounced around in my mind too. I would say if Tron ran into himself it wouldn't be the exact same program. I would say there would be personality differences. I mean all programs act and respond differently on every computer. At least that's what I've noticed. Shoot, there might even be physical differences too. A copy could be upgraded, reprogramed or even reformated by a user. Mabey even downgraded and renamed.
Programs have settings options to allow you to set the program to the way you want it to preform.

Look at how cold Tron is when in the pitcell sector. An area like that's gotta change a program. As the movie progresses we see a change in Trons personality, mainly when he meets back up with yori, communicates with Alan, and frees the system. So the change can be both from the user and system.

That's my 2 cents at least.


 
Program BASIC
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Posts: 148
Tronclone

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 1:22 PM
Tronclone my friend,

The programs weren't portrayed in "human form", as "humanoids" if you like, *JUST* for the pleasure of WE viewers at all. It was truly supposed to be this WAY, that's the wonderful thing. They are really this way, if you understand what I mean.

You know, the digital universe is a parallel "reflex" of ours, but the parameters are substantially different, because "translated" into another quantic language. That's all.

Hey, what's about the SARK point?
Thinking to it a little bit more, it seems the "SOLAR SAILORS" were IMPULSES able to transmit programs into outside domains or systems.
So, as like MCP was able to take over programs alien to the ENCOM system, so it could "blast" programs into other systems... that could explain why SARK was into FLYNN's videogame at the very beginning of the movie, or why TRON and YORI needed to move from the game domain to reach MCP's core and destroy it... maybe the game grid wasn't part of the ENCOM world. Isn't it?

Agreed, Sketch. Only who created/wrote the QUICKTIME own the "original", individual program in his system. Our versions are new, slighty different individuals with new behaviours and... who knows... they really own our faces or are slighty similar to US in terms of look-like.
After all, LIESENBERG the genius talked so many time about "informations", and not only programs - informations we commonly "use" for our purpouses and so a little bit of OURSELF is in THEM (related to the Electroverse)... he said this a lot of times. Probably he was referring to when we use programs written by someone else !!!!!!!!!!!

is program's best friend. Don't betray it --- NEVER!
 
foilism
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on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 2:13 PM
"Thinking to it a little bit more, it seems the 'SOLAR SAILORS' were IMPULSES able to transmit programs into outside domains or systems."- Program BASIC

I like this view, this view is a good view.


 
Trace
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The Game Grid

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 2:21 PM
I envisioned the Game Grid as separate from the ENCOM system. Sark has to use his carrier to travel there. I would think the Game Grid (per the film) is all videogame arcades everywhere accessed by this one sector. I don't know how else, as stated, Sark could access that one arcade machine--but that's also a leap of imagination that the film took. Who's really controlling the lightcycles? The person playing the game in the real world, or the programs driving the cycles?

Then again, arcade machines were stand-alone systems. There's really no way the MCP or Sark could get into them. So I guess we just have to lean on the good ol' "willing suspension of disbelief"!

Ah, gotta love to ramble!

**edit**
foilism, I just love your signature


 
Program BASIC
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Posts: 148
Trace, good points!

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 2:45 PM
Trace,

I think - all in all - MCP and SARK could easily obtain access to 'stand alone systems' as videogame machines 'cause these same systems are connected to a central electric network, sucking energy. Don't forget TRON and everyone else in the electroverse is running throughout "circuits"...
I understand your "leap of imagination" theory too. Again, it could be SARK's copy into the isolated videogame, but I don't know - Kevin Flynn projected and WROTE the "lightcycles" game, so I suppose the pilots would have looked like HIM in terms of humanoid form. So I tend to agree to the MCP transfert point... don't forget the pocket computer point.

Anyway, another good question (but just focuse on the other ones TOO!):

How did YORI build up her "secret room" (the love scene) and how did DUMONT really build up the energy barricades, in need to stip SARK and the GUARDS?
That's could be the answer to the whole point "How the programs really work for the Users in the Electroverse". Maybe they can NATURALLY interact with the place. FLYNN was a "wonder" because he didn't go "DE-RAZZ" by energy, or because he was able to restore a program like a RECOGNIZER, but every program can slightly interact with the place as much it is concerned with his FUNCTIONS. Of course, CROM couldn't change anything, he was just a computing program.
What are your thoughts?

is program's best friend. Don't betray it --- NEVER!
 
TriggerEXE
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Posts: 339
Uhh...

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 4:25 PM
Man, you think too much. lol Gotta look at some of this from a kid's point of view here. The way I had always thought of it was that they could travel to the arcade machines via outlets in the wall. Of course, remember that Dillenger stole Flynn's game ideas, and thus would have such access to them. You'll notice that we never see a program playing Pacman or Donkey Kong. Keep in mind this was before big office networks and stuff as we know them today. I'm sure they didn't think about the concept as it would exist today, but rather as it did back then. As a dream. A shot in the dark really. Something still in the works and quite a mystery to most people. So they just made stuff up. The world of Tron is a world of it's own. It's a different reality where things are slightly different as far as technology goes. So if you think about it like that, pretty much any theory is valid. So that is why they never explain a copy theory or anything like that. Because they didn't think of it that way. It always seemed to me like they wrote and ran the program on their computer, on their network. So only one copy existed and only one was ever needed. I suppose to know the real truth, you'd have to ask Lisberger himself about his vision. It would be like asking George Lucas about the Star Wars universe and Jedi lore. You've got to suspend your reality sometimes. Not everything has to make sense. However, some things were explained and make sense if you think about it in our terms.

For example, the digitizing beam was in and of itself a primitive transporter. Like the ones on Star Trek. That's why Alan asked if it could send him to Hawaii. Lora said something about how the object can be digitized and then sent anywhere over any distance to remolecularize in the real world. I think your (b) option would be closer to what they had in mind. It's the beginning of teleportation technology. "But you have to purchase your program three days in advance."

A lot of the concepts in Tron weren't exactly real back then, but are today. Like the network of different "domains" and such. The programs are in humanoid form, because "a peice of us resides within each and every one." That's how they explain that in the movie and that makes some sense, because programmers tend to have their own signature when creating programs. They'll leave something behind that lets people know who designed it. Just look in a bunch of the old Atari and Intellivision games.

As for the Sark in the lightcycle thing at the beginning, that IS Sark. In the movie, there is only one Sark. One Tron. One Flynn. You hear the MCP talking to Sark about "getting brutal" in the games right after that scene. This implies that that was actually Sark doing all that. Not a copy or anything. I mean, why would it have been a different Sark? Why would they try to confuse people like that? That may be why it wasn't received well when it was first released into theaters. Can you imagine people back then, having even less of a clue about how computers operate than most do now, having to visualize all this going on and try to make sense of it? When you think of Tron in it's own movie world, it makes sense. It's when you try to apply it to modern day computer networks and concepts that you have a hard time explaining why.

In the spirit of "what if" though, I've been thinking of something interesting. If users can be digitized into a "program" image, what would happen if they tried the reverse with a program? Say, Tron for example. Unrealistic, though it may be. But then, having a human go into a computer system is quite unrealistic as well. So while we're suspending disbelief here, what do you think about that? How do you think a program would respond to being in the real world? I think it'd kinda be like in the old days of Greek mythology, when humans talked about gods and Mt. Olympus. It'd be sorta like that. Going up to a relm where only gods exist. Seeing as how it seems that the pro

"The dark can embrace the light, but never eclipse it."
 
TheJediUnit
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Posts: 474
Accurate Information has arrived...

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 4:54 PM
I don't wish to overwhelm anyone with my clearly evident technological superiority, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you'll be able to digest this without dumbing it down.

The official term that fully describes what happened to Flynn (without loosing any of the true definition of the effect) is called "slurped", as in: Kevin Flynn was "slurped" into the computer.

For anyone that's confused about how he actually became a program instead of just a large buffered data file, the exact and precise description of this phenomenon is called "alakhazam", which is not to be confused with "poof" which is similar but pertains to the disappearance of data files or programs.

No need to thank me for my superior intellect. It is my pleasure to serve in this matter.












*dull thuds of TheJediUnit being pelted to within an inch of his arrogant life..*

"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
Program BASIC
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Posts: 148
whoa!

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 5:07 PM
TRIGGER,

Pretty satysfing answers, but please, don't understimate LISBERGER's genius in such semplicistic, even genuine, way. I know you were just making your point, anyway.
Steven knew about program copies or how TRON's world worked from every point of view. Truly. I don't think TRON's world is a "dream" at all! - it really would REFLECT how computer systems and programs work today, that's the reason the movie was *SO MUCH* AHEAD of its own time... because it's AHEAD still now, and we're in 2003.

However, I enjoyed your post intro, but i'm still thinking too much, and PROUD in doing it as well! I hate when people says: "It's just a movie", because they really don't get a clue. A movie is an open WIDOW on hidden mechanics which move OUR reality. There are parallel dimensions and zillion and zillion of space-time continuum lines. In one of them, you registered yourself in this forum as "PROGRAM BASIC" and I did it as "TRIGGER", but everything out of there is similar to our line! It's pshysic, man! They called it "Quantistic theory", and it's damn real.

Anyway:


"For example, the digitizing beam was in and of itself a primitive transporter. Like the ones on Star Trek. That's why Allen asked if it could send him to Hawaii. Lori said something about how the object can be digitized and then sent anywhere over any distance to remolecularize in the real world. I think your (b) option would be closer to what they had in mind. It's the beginning of teleportation technology. "But you have to purchase your program three days in advance." "

GREAT! YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT THE WHOLE TRANSPORTER THING. BASICALLY THEY REALIZED A "SETH BRUNDLE'S MACHINE" WHICH TURNED TO BE A DIGITALIZING PROJECTOR. MIXING UP APPLES WITH POTATOES, BECAUSE THEY REALLY DIDN'T KNOW OR CAN'T IMAGINE BEYOND THE SCREEN THERE WAS AN UNIVERSE... WHERE ENERGY BREATHES!

A lot of the concepts in Tron weren't exactly real back then, but are today. Like the network of different "domains" and such.

I THINK THE DOMAINS THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT WERE SECTIONS OF ONE SYTEM, ENCOM SYSTEM, OF COURSE.
NOW THE TERM IS GONE "RE-ARRANGED" TO BETTER DESCRIBE INTERNET'S STRUCTURE BUT COMING BACK TO 1982, IT WAS THAT WAY.

The programs are in humanoid form, because "a peice of us resides within each and every one." That's how they explain that in the movie and that makes some sense, because programmers tend to have their own signature when creating programs. They'll leave something behind that lets people know who designed it. Just look in a bunch of the old Atari and Intellivision games.

AGAIN, QUANTISTIC THEORY.

As for the Sark in the lightcycle thing at the beginning, that IS Sark. In the movie, there is only one Sark. One Tron. One Flynn.

BECAUSE NO ONE NEEDED TO COPY THEM... BUT IT WAS AS MUCH POSSIBLE BACK THEN AS IT'S POSSIBLE NOW.

You hear the MCP talking to Sark about "getting brutal" in the games right after that scene. This implies that that was actually Sark doing all that. Not a copy or anything. I mean, why would it have been a different Sark? Why would they try to confuse people like that? That may be why it wasn't received well when it was first released into theaters. Can you imagine people back then, having even less of a clue about how computers operate than most do now, having to visualize all this going on and try to make sense of it?

I CAN IMAGINE.

When you think of Tron in it's own movie world, it makes sense. It's when you try to apply it to modern day computer networks and concepts when you have a hard time explaining why.

NO. I THINK IT'S NOT SO HARD. AFTER ALL, INTERNET WORKS AS ONE HUGE, DIVORING SYSTEM FILLED WITH PROGRAMS. I THINK IN TRON'S WORLD THE VEHICULAR STRUCTURES CHANGED A LOT, BECAUSE THE SYSTEM BECAME INCREASELY LARGER AND LARGER TIME BY TIME, BUT EVERYTHING LOOKS THE SAME. KIND OF. THE "COPIES" ISSUE ISN'T HARD ENOUGH TO DIGEST TODAY. I THINK ONE TRON'S COPY LOOKS AND ACTS A LITTLE BIT<

is program's best friend. Don't betray it --- NEVER!
 
Program BASIC
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Posts: 148
great!

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 5:09 PM
For anyone that's confused about how he actually became a program instead of just a large buffered data file, the exact and precise description of this phenomenon is called "alakhazam", which is not to be confused with "poof" which is similar but pertains to the disappearance of data files or programs.

No need to thank me for my superior intellect. It is my pleasure to serve in this matter.





Please, explain this!

is program's best friend. Don't betray it --- NEVER!
 
Program BASIC
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Posts: 148
NO! WAIT!

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 5:18 PM
Made a little bit of searching.

Yeah, I understand the term "slurp" now, Jediunit (thanks!) but I think this term actually follows and surrounds the FIRST POINT about my theory on the LASER BEAM's function and nature.
So, in your view, FLYNN was "read" as human organism and the LASER BEAM system made a program out of the lecture. Ergo: FLYNN's molecular structure stayed OUT of the Electroverse, but disjointed for a short amount of time ('til the program-FLYNN would have found the way to defeat MCP) while a PROGRAM of Flynn's human essay" was created into the Electroverse. So, in the movie, we see FLYNN's digital simulacrum who believed to be FLYNN, but he isn't.

I don't agree. I tend to agree with TRIGGER, so we can't pick the term "slurp" anymore... FLYNN went CONVERTED --- literally. So it's basically FLYNN, not a mere lecture.

I don't think there is a middle point too... maybe.

is program's best friend. Don't betray it --- NEVER!
 
TheJediUnit
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on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 5:19 PM
...I'm just being a nut.

It's what I do.



"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
Program BASIC
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Posts: 148
WAIT!

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 5:27 PM
I'm not dubitating on your aknowledge at all, just on WHAT HAPPENED to FLYNN.
So I think "slurp" just describes the wrong theory --- it's still a correct term, anyway.

is program's best friend. Don't betray it --- NEVER!
 
Trace
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on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 5:59 PM
OMUser, JediUnit, I finally see the light! Slurped and Alakazam!!! Perfect

'Course I've always considered it more of being "Sucked" into the computer. But Slurped is a bit nicer


 
KiaPurity
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Posts: 3,482
And...

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 8:45 PM
It wasn't a yellow apple. It was a orange. XP

Kia: Cool. I'm a infamous mythological perfect User.

 
tronclone
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Posts: 42
thanks to apple

on Tuesday, January, 14, 2003 11:54 PM
we all know that the real world of TRON could only exist in a Mac computer, not those overblown overhyped wintel clone-bots (no relation to yours truly). A wintel Tron-like world would be boring and beige and would crash often so much that they (tron, clu, yori) would all talk with a stutter! Now Sark would love a wintel electroverse (love that new term!) because it could be all anal as it wants to be.
*Sings "We all live in a purple 'lectroverse, a purple 'lectroverse; we all live in a purple 'lectroverse we do!"*
:P

I think I'm a Clone Now

 
Nikster
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Posts: 1,462
Another possibility....

on Wednesday, January, 15, 2003 12:48 AM
Between games, arcade games often run a 'demo' mode where the game plays, but the program is doing everything. Maybe it's during this time that Sark and his cronies are in there kicking everyone's butt.

________________________

"The flippity on the google loads the Flynn to the disc battles the guy bad. Day wins. Said nuff!" - DaveTRON

Jack Thompson is to attorneys what Fred Phelps is to organized religion - Me

 
Program BASIC
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Posts: 148
WAIT!

on Wednesday, January, 15, 2003 5:10 AM
"we all know that the real world of TRON could only exist in a Mac computer"

Well, I think the ENCOM computer was way higher than a simple Mac

Anyway, what Laser beam theory out of the TWO do you prefer? Did Flynn go "slurped" or "transformed into digital energy"? Remember they are TWO VERY DIFFERENT OPTIONS.... really.
What does "ALAKHAZAM" mean, anyway? I'm curious!

Probably, we can read the truth into Walter's words at the very beginning of the experiment. "Turning something into nothing and then vice versa".
I'm agreeing with TRIGGER, it was a sort of "transfert ray", so our essay is going to be converted into digital matter and then the opposite, in flash again. I don't know HOW, but the laser beam just works this way.

If really Flynn went "slurped", the computer extrapolated a program out of "his" lecture. So, the Flynn we see in Tron's world isn't the real Flynn. His molecula are still out of there, in the real world. KInd of USELESS! I love this theory, but I think the laser beam works differently. Why did they build it in the first place? I think the transfert theory sounds believable, they built up the machine to transmit humna ones from a place to another.

Please, more answers... i'm enjoying this post so much!

is program's best friend. Don't betray it --- NEVER!
 
TriggerEXE
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Posts: 339
Theory..

on Wednesday, January, 15, 2003 7:16 AM
I'm not underestimating Lisberger at all. Quite the opposite. I think he is quite creative and inventive. By saying that you have to think like a kid, I meant using more imagination than rational explanation, which is something one must do in order to create such a movie as Tron. It's something they all had when working on the film.

Tron is what inspired me to persue a career in computer technology. It's why I'm a computer technician today. I think it inspired a lot of other people, and that's probably why computer systems are actually more like the world of Tron now than they were back then.

One way to think of the copy thing is that it's the same program, but installing it on another system is just like opening a portal to allow that particular program to enter and do it's thing. The world inside the computer moves so fast, we don't notice this transaction. Maybe we'll see a better explanation in the upcoming game and movie.

Hehe, "slurped." It's sorta like that in some way. If you look at the laser beam as a straw and Flynn as a beverage. I think that Flynn was actually pulled in and converted into data, whereas the orange was simply "suspended in the laser beam." It's just that the MCP used the beam to reassemble Flynn inside the computer world rather than just holding and returning his pattern. The MCP was a rather intelligent computer. Seeing as how it went and appropriated technology from other big companies. It's not beyond the realm of rational thought.

I don't think the world of Tron existed in any comparable operating system we know of. It looked a lot like a command line OS of some sort. Perhaps in 2.0, we'll see a GUI version of the system and be able to compare easier. Besides, an OS is just an interface that allows the user to communicate with the data. The raw data is pretty much always the same no matter the OS. Only the format is different to allow communication to a user through a certain OS.

"The dark can embrace the light, but never eclipse it."
 
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 ElecTRONIC questions... very interesting!