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Argent
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Posts: 273
Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Friday, July, 06, 2012 4:45 PM
Most of the posters here already know my feelings about the ending of Tron: Legacy. (For those who haven't been keeping score, I felt bringing programs into the real world introduced more questions than it answered, and whoever's tasked with writing the script for the next movie is going to have their hands full trying to make that work.) Just a minute ago, I was struck by an interesting thought.

What if Quorra didn't really leave the Grid with Sam?
At least, not the way most of us have been thinking.

Like all of us, Sam's walking around with a sophisticated biocomputer between his ears. What if Sam returned to the real world with two 'programs' running on that wetware CPU - his own persona, and Quorra?

Think about it. No one else but Sam has seen her. We haven't seen her pick up or manipulate any physical objects in the real world. She could very easily be a sort of 'digital phantom' inhabiting Sam's brain, capable of being seen and heard only by him in the real world. Transport him back to the Grid and she'll be a separate program again, running on its hardware instead of Sam's brain.

I'll admit that this idea appeals to me, since it addresses my issues with the whole 'programs appearing as living beings in the physical world' thing. Of course, this would also mean that Clu's invasion plans were fated to fail, but I'm willing to accept that Clu had it all wrong. (Though I still wish that Clu's 'invasion' plans had involved trying to escape Flynn's Grid server and sweep out into the Internet on a crusade to make it 'perfect' and 'free it from the tyranny of the Users', with all the chaos that would cause in the real world as a result. A much more credible threat than leading an army armed with glowsticks and killer frisbees out of the basement of an abandoned arcade...)

So yeah, I'm just throwing this out there for people to comment on and discuss. Good idea, terrible idea, crazy idea? (Okay, I already know it's a crazy idea. But still.) Interested in hearing other peoples' thoughts.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
/Charon
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Posts: 49
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Friday, July, 06, 2012 5:38 PM
I would love if that were the case.
But they surely would have made it more obvious if it was...

I mean, when people would watch the sequel and be told she was just in his head, they would go "oh cmon thats just a convenient way to avoid addressing the issues it creates.."

So I stick to the Quorra-is-made-of-Flynns-matter theory.

I wish there would have been more clarification on what clu thought he was gonna do, and how Flynn thought it would go, since he did consider it a threat.
Clu going out I get, since he is basically an outdated simpler version of Flynn, but there is no way anything else aka the mindless army and their ship could be materialised, as all the laser has to work with is the matter of Sam and his father.

As for Quorra, as an ISO, she had a DNA like code, just programmed differently (Id guess its less messy and excludes stuff like aging, vulnerability to diseases, or things along those lines.), so I understand it that she is simply in Flynns place in the real world. Meaning even if Flynn didnt blow himself up, he couldn't get out at the moment, because Quorra is running around made of atoms he was made of.
A simple confirmation of this would have been if she appeared in Flynns clothes xD (on the other hand, this is kinda even more ewwwww) and I doubt Flynn wore womens clothes when he entered the grid last time :Bbuy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
Argent
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Posts: 273
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Friday, July, 06, 2012 6:09 PM
/Charon Wrote:I would love if that were the case.
But they surely would have made it more obvious if it was...

I mean, when people would watch the sequel and be told she was just in his head, they would go "oh cmon thats just a convenient way to avoid addressing the issues it creates.."

True. Though the idea does lend itself to a Sixth Sense-style scenario - leave clues to the truth for attentive viewers/noticeable on repeat viewings (like people not commenting on Quorra's presence or Quorra never picking up anything in the real world), leading up to a big reveal ('What do you mean you don't see her, Alan? She's standing right there!')

Could be fun stuff if handled right!

/Charon Wrote:So I stick to the Quorra-is-made-of-Flynns-matter theory.

Agreed. If she is really walking around in the real world now, the only way for that to work in my mind is if her body was built from Flynn's stored mass. I'm still not sold on the idea of spontaneously-generated 'digital DNA' directly mapping to any sort of functional real-world biology, and none of the explanations I've read or come up with have felt entirely satisfying to me on that front. I'm wondering if they'll even bother trying to explain it in the sequel. I don't want them to handwave it - 'it's magic, don't think about it too hard' - but I'm afraid that's what'll end up happening. : /
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Kat
User

Posts: 2,344
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Friday, July, 06, 2012 7:11 PM
Strange, but it'd make an interesting fanfic (HINT).

It would explain why Alan's not like "uh, Sam, you know there's some chick dressed in tight pants and a lot of eyeliner staking out your Ducati?"

Although I admit it... for someone who's usually a stickler about shit being plausible, Q hitting the real world and becoming human doesn't bug me at all. (though the thought of her having some sort of superpowers rather than being a regular person does.)buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
MCPcomputer
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Posts: 1,674
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 3:17 AM

That sounds pretty strange...
but at the same time...
very interesting....

I do like the idea of that though... just beautiful...buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

"I want him in the games until he dies playing" -MCP
Great Tron 3 blog, with news links and artwork
http://tron3movie.blogspot.com/
 
Pilgrim1099
User

Posts: 606
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 10:26 AM
Argent Wrote:Most of the posters here already know my feelings about the ending of Tron: Legacy. (For those who haven't been keeping score, I felt bringing programs into the real world introduced more questions than it answered, and whoever's tasked with writing the script for the next movie is going to have their hands full trying to make that work.) Just a minute ago, I was struck by an interesting thought.

What if Quorra didn't really leave the Grid with Sam?
At least, not the way most of us have been thinking.

Like all of us, Sam's walking around with a sophisticated biocomputer between his ears. What if Sam returned to the real world with two 'programs' running on that wetware CPU - his own persona, and Quorra?

Think about it. No one else but Sam has seen her. We haven't seen her pick up or manipulate any physical objects in the real world. She could very easily be a sort of 'digital phantom' inhabiting Sam's brain, capable of being seen and heard only by him in the real world. Transport him back to the Grid and she'll be a separate program again, running on its hardware instead of Sam's brain.

I'll admit that this idea appeals to me, since it addresses my issues with the whole 'programs appearing as living beings in the physical world' thing. Of course, this would also mean that Clu's invasion plans were fated to fail, but I'm willing to accept that Clu had it all wrong. (Though I still wish that Clu's 'invasion' plans had involved trying to escape Flynn's Grid server and sweep out into the Internet on a crusade to make it 'perfect' and 'free it from the tyranny of the Users', with all the chaos that would cause in the real world as a result. A much more credible threat than leading an army armed with glowsticks and killer frisbees out of the basement of an abandoned arcade...)

So yeah, I'm just throwing this out there for people to comment on and discuss. Good idea, terrible idea, crazy idea? (Okay, I already know it's a crazy idea. But still.) Interested in hearing other peoples' thoughts.

That would certainly make a lot of sense, as if she's his invisible 'digital' friend. However, it is possible that she is 'cloaked' for the most part and if she wants to show herself as proof having seen Kevin Flynn, she could materialize in front of Alan and Dilly Junior as Sam's proof of alibi. If she is made of energy, she may be able to alter her clothing to fit in with the real world. buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
ChessMess
User

Posts: 443
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 10:51 AM
That is a very interesting concept, something that had not occurred to me before, kudo's for thinking that up!

That said I don't think I like that path as much, simply because Quorra is unique life form, sentience gained within the digital space through the strange interaction induced by Flynns presence on the grid and other conditions being 'right'.

The ability of the laser to generate her from Flynns biological matter and her own programming is unique as well. I don't think any normal program would have been able to make the transition, except possibly Clu, to the real world.

I guess I'm saying that at this point I've accepted the proposition that she is physically in the real world, and now I want to see where that leads.

Besides, in T4, Bradly will come back in time from the future to tell Sam & Quorra that they are fine, but their KIDS..... buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,344
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 11:15 AM
ChessMess Wrote:Besides, in T4, Bradly will come back in time from the future to tell Sam & Quorra that they are fine, but their KIDS.....

Make it Gibbs in a glowing digital DeLorean and we might have something there... (oh man, I want to photoshop a DelLorean in the worst way now...)

I spend most of my days begging whatever film gods are up there, though, that the next movie doesn't turn into a parenting movie. PLEASE. Just let these people do what they do and focus on doing important stuff WITHOUT making them procreate. I want an action film, not a baby film.
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What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
emdeesee
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Posts: 216
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 1:06 PM
An interesting idea, Argent, but I'm not sure it helps alleviate the questions that are raised by the potential of a material Quorra. To me, it seems just about as troubling...

It would require the digitazation system to "rewire" Sam's brain to provide the "virtual machine" within which Quorra would run, then booting Quorra into that machine. Then the virtual machine in Sam's brain has to function in such a way as to make Sam experience coherent hallucinations. And when you get past all that, you still have all the same problems about existence in the digital world vs. the "real" world.

This, as opposed to "simply" running the "rebuild Sam Flynn" program.

It need just about as much cognitive effort to try an suspend my disbelief for "the system rebuilt Sam with multiple conciousnesses, functioning independently, and Sam perceives the not-him consciousness as Quorra" as it does for "somehow the system constructed a new, functioning human being, and it thinks it's Quorra."

Which is, you know, a lot.

Thematically, it weakens the finale, when Quorra feels the wind on her face and the sun on her skin. There's power in that scene because of Quorra's physical presence to have these new experiences. That power would be lost if the experiences were mediated through Sam's physicality.

(As much as I find issues in the end of Legacy, I think that's a great scene.)buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you call a program who brings a disc to a light cycle battle? Derezzed.
 
Pilgrim1099
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Posts: 606
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 3:38 PM
emdeesee Wrote:An interesting idea, Argent, but I'm not sure it helps alleviate the questions that are raised by the potential of a material Quorra. To me, it seems just about as troubling...

It would require the digitazation system to "rewire" Sam's brain to provide the "virtual machine" within which Quorra would run, then booting Quorra into that machine. Then the virtual machine in Sam's brain has to function in such a way as to make Sam experience coherent hallucinations. And when you get past all that, you still have all the same problems about existence in the digital world vs. the "real" world.

This, as opposed to "simply" running the "rebuild Sam Flynn" program.

It need just about as much cognitive effort to try an suspend my disbelief for "the system rebuilt Sam with multiple conciousnesses, functioning independently, and Sam perceives the not-him consciousness as Quorra" as it does for "somehow the system constructed a new, functioning human being, and it thinks it's Quorra."

Which is, you know, a lot.

Thematically, it weakens the finale, when Quorra feels the wind on her face and the sun on her skin. There's power in that scene because of Quorra's physical presence to have these new experiences. That power would be lost if the experiences were mediated through Sam's physicality.

(As much as I find issues in the end of Legacy, I think that's a great scene.)

On the other hand, what emdeecee says is sensible. He's got a point about the laws of physics where her hair moves about in the wind during the motorcycle ride and seeing the sun for the first time.
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Argent
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Posts: 273
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 5:15 PM
emdeesee Wrote:An interesting idea, Argent, but I'm not sure it helps alleviate the questions that are raised by the potential of a material Quorra. To me, it seems just about as troubling...

It would require the digitazation system to "rewire" Sam's brain to provide the "virtual machine" within which Quorra would run, then booting Quorra into that machine. Then the virtual machine in Sam's brain has to function in such a way as to make Sam experience coherent hallucinations. And when you get past all that, you still have all the same problems about existence in the digital world vs. the "real" world.

This, as opposed to "simply" running the "rebuild Sam Flynn" program.

It need just about as much cognitive effort to try an suspend my disbelief for "the system rebuilt Sam with multiple conciousnesses, functioning independently, and Sam perceives the not-him consciousness as Quorra" as it does for "somehow the system constructed a new, functioning human being, and it thinks it's Quorra."

Which is, you know, a lot.

I have less difficulty with this idea because it seems - at least to me - to be a little more plausible, given the functionality and limitations of a system like the Grid based on what we've seen. (It'd be a lot easier if we didn't have to try and square things with the first movie, which establishes some unwritten ground rules that the sequel plays fast and loose with.)

One thing we know for certain is that the Grid server has to be capable of dynamically modelling a User's consciousness. It doesn't have to be a 1:1 simulation of brain function down to the firing of individual neurons and chemical state changes, and it probably wouldn't be - that's hideously computationally expensive, so you'd want to abstract it into something that would be capable of actually fitting onto the server. Something more like a Grid program's persona. The portal also has to be able to update the stored model of the User's brain when they transit back to the real world to reflect the experiences they had on the Grid. If it didn't, they wouldn't remember anything that happened there once they left.

Programs, like Users, apparently possess conscious minds on the Grid. In the case of the ISOs in particular - free-willed entities without a hard-coded purpose - their minds seem extremely close to human. Sufficiently so that I have no problem with the idea of the portal mapping algorithms parsing that abstract model and generating a functioning physical brain model from it.

The problems begin when we start talking about bodies.

We know that programs on the Grid aren't physically modeled like Users, Quorra included. Even if we assume a User's physical body is digitally abstracted from the scanning data as well, there's clearly a lot more being simulated internally - the fact that Sam bleeds on the Grid is very telling. Programs don't bleed, or suffer from blood loss, or even seem to have any sort of functional innards based on what we've seen. They're walking, talking avatars made of glassy voxels that shatter when they take too much damage. And that's a good thing, because trying to simulate the complex biochemical interactions constantly going on in humans for every program on the Grid would be hugely prohibitive in terms of memory overhead and CPU use. Abstracting the physical on the Grid is the smart way to go.

This creates headaches, though. If programs aren't physically simulated like Users, what does the portal software have to work from? With Users, there's that scanned template to rebuild the body from, which is what the portal's designed to work with. Update the "brain" of the template when it leaves so that it has memories of the experience, then reconstruct it in the real world. Boom, done. For a program, it's basically being asked to create a living body from whole cloth, based on nothing but their physical appearance on the Grid (if that). That's where my suspension of disbelief starts to founder. I can accept the idea of generating a working human neural configuration out of abstract program data because it's arguably necessary just to make the Grid work in the first place. But now we're talking about a magic box that lets you feed computer programs into one end and have living breathing people pop out of the other, scratch-built to spec, by a system that was never really designed for that. A tape recorder can store music and sounds and play them back; it's not made to generate music. And the laser, like a tape recorder, was originally designed to record something - in this case, a physical image of a User - and play that back.

(The more I think about this, the more I think Flynn would have had to have something like a leashed, lobotomized MCP running things at the OS level to make any of this function at all.)

I can work around these issues in my head, but nothing I've come up with feels particularly satisfying.


emdeesee Wrote:Thematically, it weakens the finale, when Quorra feels the wind on her face and the sun on her skin. There's power in that scene because of Quorra's physical presence to have these new experiences. That power would be lost if the experiences were mediated through Sam's physicality.

(As much as I find issues in the end of Legacy, I think that's a great scene.)


It's a great image, and I really like it on that level. Sadly, it also creates some serious issues for me. I can't help but think that the writers liked that ending so much that they decided to throw plausibility to the wind. 'Erm... um... if people can go in, programs can come out! Yeah, that's it. Now check out this ending! Isn't it awesome?!' Rule of Cool alone isn't enough to carry that ending, IMO. Especially not given the can of worms it opens.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,344
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 6:19 PM
Pilgrim1099 Wrote:
On the other hand, what emdeecee says is sensible. He's got a point about the laws of physics where her hair moves about in the wind during the motorcycle ride and seeing the sun for the first time.

Nah, that doesn't bug me so much. If it's all in Sam's head, then yes, everything WOULD follow the laws of physics as he knows them. I mean, I suppose you could make that stuff NOT happen, which could be how Sam figures out she's only in his head (kind of like in A Beautiful Mind when he finally realizes he knows that friend of his who he's always imagining isn't real, because the guy has never aged).



emdeesee Wrote:An interesting idea, Argent, but I'm not sure it helps alleviate the questions that are raised by the potential of a material Quorra. To me, it seems just about as troubling...

It would require the digitazation system to "rewire" Sam's brain to provide the "virtual machine" within which Quorra would run, then booting Quorra into that machine. Then the virtual machine in Sam's brain has to function in such a way as to make Sam experience coherent hallucinations. And when you get past all that, you still have all the same problems about existence in the digital world vs. the "real" world.

Another scenario that would be interesting is that Sam THINKS Q's in his head... and we come to find out later that something about being digitized can mess with your brain. After all, people thought Flynn was getting weird toward the end, right? Maybe it was a product of constant digitization that screwed up something in his psyche. I mean, let's think about it. Your consciousness is being transferred between your own body and a computer system. Seems to me that it'd be pretty easy, then, to lose stuff in translation, kind of like a game of Telephone. Especially since you're essentially zapped wirelessly. Eventually, information might be lost or altered, right? I mean, think about the myriad of dangers with even the smallest error in the digitization process.

And consider that that's one of the things to think about with quantum teleportation. I get zapped to France. when I'm re-created there, am I the same person? I'll probably be created using different matter, for one. So would I really be the same person in all ways?


Again, I would love to read fics based around either of these ideas. Just not sure I'd want it to be canon via Disney.


I've always thought you're right, though, Argent-- how does the laser know how to replicate something that never had the parameters in the first place? I mean, when Q's arm is off, it's clearly a simple pixelation. How would the laser know how to recreate her with all of the internal stuff that would be necessary to create a human arm? Even if it used Flynn's matter, the laser only knows how to create two people: Sam Flynn and Kevin Flynn. It has NO IDEA how to create any other body, let alone a female body. Based on info it has, it MIGHT be able to approximate another male body, though I figure it would either come out with errors and inconsistencies (think of Odo on Star Trek), or it might come out looking a lot like one or both of the Flynns (or at least the internal structures might be similar since that's what the laser wouldn't already have info for).


And, too, let's consider the idea of cell aging and such as well. How far is Flynn's matter broken down in the laser? If Quorra is recreated using it, is she essentially kicking around with 50-some-year-old cells and stuff? Does that mean she'll end up like Mel Gibson in the end of Forever Young where she ages quickly? Or, for that matter, might she age quickly anyway, since she comes from a place with accelerated time as compared to ours (Flynn, after all, seems to age according to time in the real world, not in the Grid, so perhaps Q might also age according to her natural environment)?


Also, speaking of cans of worms-- there's a reason I've never brought a program into the real world in any of my fic. Because OMG the difference. Even just your first experience of the sun would have you screaming and covering your eyes, because you're coming from a place where you have ALWAYS lived in total darkness with artificial light. Hell, you wouldn't even know you're not supposed to look right at it. Imagine dealing with the reality of getting sick and aging and mortality (and this would be the worst. Even people who have been used to these things their whole lives don't handle them well). Of body functions like the need to eat and breathe, elimination, etc. Real-world laws and culture and mores. Experiencing plants and animals and all the rest of the natural world. The need to bathe and change one's clothes. It would be culture shock of the worst kind. Think of all the things of our world that it's taken you a lifetime to learn, that you've learned because you've been immersed in this world... then imagine having to learn it all academically all at once, things you've never experienced before, having to unlearn an entire world that has been your existence all along. I don't know if anyone could handle it.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
ChessMess
User

Posts: 443
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 7:42 PM
I think your over thinking the purpose of the laser.

Think of it as nothing more than today's actual 3d printers.

A 3d printer doesn't know the difference between anything that it prints (
examples). All it knows is how to spit out goo based upon a pattern/template.

Change the template and as long as it has goo, it can print it.

Quorra was 'printed' using Flynns goo, Sam was printed using Sams goo.

To presume it could dynamically alter templates is way way waaaaay beyond anything they could have programmed. What they figured out todate is how to break down an object into a readable, storable, and reprintable pattern. Gibbs says as much in the original Tron.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
Argent
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Posts: 273
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 8:33 PM
ChessMess Wrote:I think your over thinking the purpose of the laser.

Think of it as nothing more than today's actual 3d printers.

A 3d printer doesn't know the difference between anything that it prints (examples). All it knows is how to spit out goo based upon a pattern/template.

Change the template and as long as it has goo, it can print it.

Quorra was 'printed' using Flynns goo, Sam was printed using Sams goo.

To presume it could dynamically alter templates is way way waaaaay beyond anything they could have programmed. What they figured out todate is how to break down an object into a readable, storable, and reprintable pattern. Gibbs says as much in the original Tron.

That leaves us with the question of how anyone remembers their experiences on the Grid. Memory and thought are the functions of electrical and biochemical activity within the brain. If you just reassemble someone from the snapshot the laser takes of them going 'in', with no changes, they're not going to recall the time they spent there. That would be perfect for something that's intended purely for transportation, and I'm assuming that's how the digitizing laser was originally intended to function. But the MCP had the will - and computing power - to take Flynn's digitized matter template, abstract a digital image from it that could run on the Encom mainframe, and throw that image onto the Game Grid with the intent of tormenting, and ultimately, derezzing him there. Think about it: Flynn was already dead at that point. He had been disintegrated, his body broken down into its constituent molecules. All the MCP needed to do was to shut down the laser and delete the snapshot of Flynn from storage and that would've been the end of it.

I'm guessing that after the events of the original Tron, one of the main things Flynn set out to do when creating the Grid was to reliably reproduce whatever method the MCP had used on the Encom system to allow him to remember his visit when he was reassembled in the real world afterwards. buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,344
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Saturday, July, 07, 2012 10:27 PM
How does the laser get your consciousness anyway? Especially without being hardwired in? I could see it if you were sitting in a chair wearing some sort of VR helmet that could read your brain waves, etc. (a la The Matrix, sorta, actually) but to do it just by breaking down your *physical* matter with a laser beam? I dunno about you, but my brain's not Bluetooth-enabled... (are we now getting too far into the "what constitutes a person's identity/personality/soul" thing?)buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Argent
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Posts: 273
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Sunday, July, 08, 2012 5:07 AM
Kat Wrote:How does the laser get your consciousness anyway? Especially without being hardwired in? I could see it if you were sitting in a chair wearing some sort of VR helmet that could read your brain waves, etc. (a la The Matrix, sorta, actually) but to do it just by breaking down your *physical* matter with a laser beam? I dunno about you, but my brain's not Bluetooth-enabled... (are we now getting too far into the "what constitutes a person's identity/personality/soul" thing?)

To break someone down into their component particles and reassemble them into a living, breathing person again afterward is more involved than it seems at first blush. If you only recorded the types and positions of atoms in the body, rebuilding someone from that template later would leave you with a lifeless corpse. To successfully recreate a living organism, you'd need more data. You'd want a snapshot of all the ongoing processes in the body, electrical and chemical, so that when you put the target back together again, those processes will resume as if they'd never been interrupted. The simplest way to do that would be for the scanning laser to work at a higher resolution, so to speak - recording the target's makeup at the subatomic level, along with the charge, energy level, etc., of each individual particle.

So now your template contains not only the physical structure of the target's brain, but a freezeframe of the electrochemical activity occurring there at the time they were scanned. That should be enough data for a sufficiently advanced system to generate a 'virtual brain' at a higher level of abstraction - faithfully mirroring the scanned person's consciousness in code without having to simulate the electrochemical states of billions of neurons in real time - then translate that back into an updated physical model again when the User decides it's time to exit the Grid.

The real question here is a metaphysical one. Is there more to human consciousness than just neurochemistry and electrical activity in the brain? If so, what happens when you break down a person into a cloud of subatomic particles? At least in the Tron universe, I'm inclined to think programs are imbued with some of the spirit of their creators (as Gibbs seemed to suggest in his conversation with Dillinger), and Users that have been scanned are in effect 'ghosts in the machine' - with the body effectively reduced to plasma, the soul goes to where the mind is, which in this case, would be the hardware where the User's simulated consciousness resides.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
ChessMess
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Posts: 443
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Sunday, July, 08, 2012 9:25 AM
Good points both. I guess the MCP didn't just delete Flynn because his core routines were programmed around a game and thus why he did what he did.

Hmmm ok so the grid is a 3d environment that loads the 'user model' and issues an initialize command to. The model itself is fully encapsulated running its own 'unique' code (we can't think too hard on this otherwise the whole movie premise falls apart). Thus when the laser prints out the template, it contains the current state of the model which contains the new experiences which is why they remember their grid experience.

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Pilgrim1099
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RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Sunday, July, 08, 2012 9:35 AM
Argent Wrote:
It's a great image, and I really like it on that level. Sadly, it also creates some serious issues for me. I can't help but think that the writers liked that ending so much that they decided to throw plausibility to the wind. 'Erm... um... if people can go in, programs can come out! Yeah, that's it. Now check out this ending! Isn't it awesome?!' Rule of Cool alone isn't enough to carry that ending, IMO. Especially not given the can of worms it opens.

EXACTLY. Sometimes writers, like those who wrote Legacy, fall victim to that line of thinking. Especially one who wrote Prometheus and was good buddies with the LOST boys. The idea of "Rule of Cool" does exist and usually is a poor substitute to have a solid conclusion or explanation. Matrix 3 fell short in conclusion with cliche-ness and is a good example of this.

Anyway, visually, it is powerful to see Quorra ride the bike with Sam and see the sun for the first time, feeling awestruck. I think it was a directorial decision based on emotional value on a high note, almost a orchestra composer would. Ultimately, it was Kozinski's idea to focus on the human theme between father and son.

The writers can't dictate how the film is shot visually, so that's all left to the director's discretion on the visuals. All they do is construct the script based on dialogue and location placement, in contrast to comic book writers, who can create a detailed script, describing the panel shot (if need be), dialogue, FX, how characters are behaving, etc.

I think the shooting script is finalized by the director as he consults with the storyboard artist(s). So the director has to go with the writers' format and make the best out of it. We're very lucky because this guy happened to have experience in architecture and he knew what he was doing, and not screwing around. It's very interesting to see how Joseph had the discipline and experience working in an architecture firm and then doing commercials, especially one with Gears of War for XBox 360 with such focus, whereas, one would question if the writing team really had focus compared to him.

And that goes back to the Quorra ending. "Rule of Cool" vs. directorial restraint/discipline mixed with visual design experience. buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
Pilgrim1099
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RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Sunday, July, 08, 2012 9:59 AM
Argent Wrote:
I'm guessing that after the events of the original Tron, one of the main things Flynn set out to do when creating the Grid was to reliably reproduce whatever method the MCP had used on the Encom system to allow him to remember his visit when he was reassembled in the real world afterwards.

Here's an interesting thought. Flynn was the first man to get inside the ENCOM grid in 1982, thanks to the MCP when he should'nt have. In a way the MCP made a huge mistake in digitizing Flynn into his world because Users can't die in there (metaphysically, maybe).

When he got to the MCP and jumped into Big Mr. Kool Aid Man's head (. . .now I think of it. why did'nt they do a commercial Kool-Aid Man as MCP back in '82 to promote the product?), he returned back to the real world.

Now, the MCP was alive and actively using the Digitizer on Flynn, but if he got shut down, how can he actively zap Flynn back without any access to the device?

When Lora used an orange to zap it in and out, did the MCP see the orange in front of his face or did it land into 'welcoming center' where Flynn arrived OR what? I'm sure the red guards probably got confused and said to Sark, "Well, we saw this orange like ball in that room but it disappeared on us. Looked like a glitch, maybe?".

The point is that after he returned to the real world, he probably had some PTSD for a long time, not willing to tell anyone about his unique experience. It shook him up for sure and I think over time, he wondered about his digital friends and had a sense of kinship for them. He wanted to see how they were doing, but he could'nt just get inside ENCOM.

So I think he missed that world and developed his own Grid at the arcade lab to ensure that no one hacks into it, especially knowing that it can fall victim to corporate sabotage from rivals. He had to build it from scratch as if it was his own "Sim City" to play with.

In a sense it was Flynn's "Sim City in the Grid". A digital playground until he realized that it was the ultimate research lab to conduct studies but in the same time, I think he got addicted to it, losing sense of time, and ultimately losing control of managing his life at work, his family, and so on. In fact, I think when his wife died, this is what triggered him to be a bit more of a recluse and wanting to escape away from the real world to cope with his wife's passing.

But would she have known about his digital experiences, if he was able to confide in her? It was implied she died in a car accident (comic book), but not in the film. My take is that, coming from the Marvel 2-parter comic, when Flynn gave his wife a 'brick cell phone' to call him in case of anything. It is possible that when CLU got the phone number, seeing it display in front of him during the page, he must've used it AFTER Sam was born.

The phone call probably distracted her while she was driving with that brick phone. That's my theory. I know the lack of explanation from the film is a bit lazy on the writers' part but it would've been very interesting had they provided some detail to it in connection to the story.

So again, in '82, he develops PTSD from having visited the ENCOM grid. I would if that happened to me and would've visited it again if I wanted to hide away from the real world from creditors, cops, negative people, and so on.

It's like someone in a village, say in Ireland, going off into the woods and meeting fairies for real. The experience would shake him or her off. Once back to the village, that person will be thinking long about that woodland adventure and make an attempt to return back there to see if they're still there. buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
Pilgrim1099
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Posts: 606
RE: Quorra and the End of Tron: Legacy

on Sunday, July, 08, 2012 10:22 AM
I was right as I found it on wiki:

In 1985, Kevin's wife died, which triggered a profound change in him. In the years that followed, Kevin grew increasingly distant from his life in the real world as he devoted more and more time to his pet project and would frequently leave Sam in the care of his parents. His public behavior became more erratic as he began to promote his vision of a "digital frontier to reshape the human condition." He called for computer systems to be open and he began giving away ENCOM software, such as a propriety operating system that Flynn named after himself. Kevin was obsessed with the connection between the human and computer worlds, and in a speech before a large crowd declared "In there is a new world. In there is our future. In there is our destiny." Flynn also wrote a book, called "The Digital Frontier," that spelled out his beliefs.

------------------------------------------

The distant behavior is what I had mentioned as the big turnaround, but his wife's death was never explained. And what's interesting is that when he wanted to promote an open computer system for the real world, he actually had to sequester one in his basement without any connection. Ironic, no?

And when he said 'In there is a new world, in there is our future, in there is our destiny", CLU said the opposite. Such parallelism at play.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
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