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 maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...


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Moses613
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Posts: 272
maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...

on Friday, March, 29, 2013 7:21 PM
One of the major flaws (man I choke when I have to say that) about T:L is that when Flynn was working on the Grid and still coming and going from and to it at leisure, we could not have even fathomed such a powerful computer existed. We could barely even do so now. So the question is: How did he invent such a computer, and on his own? And how did it manage to stay on for so long, unattended? I mean just think of the amount of ones and zeroes such a computer would have to simultaneously crunch every second to create a simulation of everything in a world that covered thousands of square miles. That'd probably be more bits than there are even molecules in the universe. Or something like that, you get the jist.

So this may be way out there, but let's say he, as a supercomputer genius beyond our understanding, was let in on or even allowed to back-engineer a computer the government recovered decades ago from a crashed alien spacecraft as part of their research on the item. He's taken to Area 51 for this effort and granted an amount of access to the site never previously known to a civilian. He then copies and incorporates elements of the alien computer into a design of his own back in his own lab, creates the Tron universe in that computer and then brings Tron and CLU into it. This would also explain just why he chose to work in absolute seclusion in his lab. Don't tell me the guy didn't have some cubby hole at Encom he could have done all this at, but even that would not have been secure enough. No, this had to be a place unknown to anyone, under his arcade, yet just maybe discoverable by someone who knew him intimately, should the worst happen: His not being able to return.

Say also that the very purpose of the alien computer was to simulate human behavior and it's societal evolution in order to help the aliens study such things. Much like we study rats in mazes, they would have studied simulations of us, only in a computer made just for the task. They would have input what little bits of our behavior and world they would have been able to glean from distant observations up to that time. A few previous expeditions to earth, which were supposed to be secret, failed when the crafts were spotted by us or crashed. Just a very few were allowed to be seen by humans to gauge their reactions to their appearance. Over time, the computer would also evolved and advanced that artificial, inter-computer world by itself, adding oceans, more evolved vehicles, smoothing out edges and creating weather.

So by the time Kevin Flynn got a hold of this technology and began experimenting with it on his own, it was either tailor-made for him to construct his own world in or maybe even make use of the existing programs and geography to plug himself and his own creations into. Yes, he created Tron City, that's easy to see, but what if other cities, such as, say Argon?...already existed and were up and running by then? What if there were cities in the Tron universe which he hadn't even found yet? He obviously invented the light cycles and then built the arena for the programs to ride them in just as one thing of his own he brought into that world.

All of this also explains the advanced tech of the SHIVA laser. It could have been used by the aliens to transport themselves into the simulation. The best way for them to study that world would be to be in it.

All of this, as far as I can see, would fit nicely into the existing Tron canon. So are there any holes in this theory I'm missing? Or can we agree that it's a plausible back-plot theory which explains an few things?


 
KingJ.exe
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Posts: 371
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...

on Friday, March, 29, 2013 8:17 PM
Ehhh, personally I think the alien plot is overused just a mite. Indiana Jones kinda jumped the shark when they went that route.

I think the main reason the Grid is so expansive is because it's supposed to be an allegory for a computer system. For instance, a city could be a hard drive partition. The undeveloped Grid is formatted, defragmented space, and the Outlands are fragmented, unformatted space. Get what I'm saying?

So really, the computer system isn't running the Grid as a simulation. The Grid is the computer system. Sure, Flynn tweaked it from the inside so that he could test different things, like that windsurfboard looking Solar Sailer we see in Betrayal. But for the most part, it's merely what the system looks like to a program.

Everybody go join End of Line, an awesome TRON Roleplay forum! http://troneol.b1.jcink.com/index.php?
 



Posts: 0
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...
on Friday, March, 29, 2013 8:17 PM
I don't see the whole Area51 / alien tech fitting into the cannon.

Kevin Flynn was a visionary; considered one of the greatest geniuses according to cannon. By his own admission, he had come up with the concept of wireless networking decades before it was available to the public.

The ENCOM crew, according to cannon, pioneered networking of multiple computers in the early eighties, when it was barely in use in the mainstream; At the time, the government was just barely laying the foundations of DarpaNet (the beginning of the internet) and you couldn't actually network more than two PC's (via dial-up modem, at extremely limited speeds)

ENCOM even had their own terminology for it, they called it Interlinking.

I think it wasn't a single computer hosting the Grid, post MCP, in fact, it was most likely a primitive hard-wired Beowulf Cluster, or, a Multi-processing super computer made by networking hundreds of lesser machines. The racks in Flynns lab are a testament to this, multiple mainboards and drives, networked together for the expressed purpose of task sharing. (much like modern cloud computing, but on a local LAN)

The Tron SHV laser has it's roots in reality. It was based on a real world project, known as the Shiva laser at the Lawrence Livermore Labs, which, at the time, was used as a location for shooting some scenes for the original TRON. It's definitely not from Area 51.

Read all about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_laser
Anyways, Flynn's experience in the original film was eluded to as more of a "Dream" in legacy, and was sort of his inspiration to create the Grid. Legacy confuses the matter, in that, while Kevin did experience life inside the computer, the human mind interpreted the "Data" he encountered in the system as a certain experience. He tried to refine that experience, and re-tool a system to "Flesh it out" and make it more compatible with human "Wetware" (read up on human/machine interfaces, transumanism, etc) Hence, His work on grid 2.0. With the quick advancement in networking (LAN networks via BNC cable was just staring to come into use in the private business sector at the time) as well as faster processors (The leap from 8086 processors, floppy disks and tape drives and 640K memory to 386 and 486 processors and larger memory modules, not to mention larger hard disks) could easily explain the leap in technology, Especially with the backing of a Bleeding-edge tech outfit like ENCOM backing the project.

As for the graphic quality of the sim, one needs only look at the difference between Tron's CGI, and that used in films like The Last Starfighter and Young Sherlock Holmes (and that's from a film company, not a large tech firm) It's entirely feasible, especially when you consider the fictional company that made it all possible. ENCOM was supposedly the elite company in the game, that is, until Kevin Flynn went "missing".

But that's just my take on it.



 
BigE73
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Posts: 27
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...

on Friday, March, 29, 2013 8:25 PM
I don't know why, but when I make larger, long-winded posts, I always seem to log myself out somehow. The above was by me... again.

I accidentally hit the back button on my browser, maybe that had something to do with it.

>Sigh< Sorry about that everyone; I'll get the hang of it eventually.

One thing I left out (or neglected to mention) is that the purpose of the Shiva laser (the real one) was for compressing matter for experiments dealing with fusion. Compressing matter sounds like it has an ideal application for digitizing matter into a computer (at least in the early 80's, to a film producer), although that isn't the case in reality.

The actual laser was WAAAAY bigger than it's movie counterpart by the way.

-Big-E

I can probably make make that, Just ask.
 
Moses613
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Posts: 272
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...

on Tuesday, April, 02, 2013 8:35 PM
I don't see the whole Area51 / alien tech fitting into the cannon.

Kevin Flynn was a visionary; considered one of the greatest geniuses according to cannon. By his own admission, he had come up with the concept of wireless networking decades before it was available to the public.
In defense of some of my theories and their (albeit, fictional) possibilities.....

The ENCOM crew, according to cannon, pioneered networking of multiple computers in the early eighties, when it was barely in use in the mainstream; At the time, the government was just barely laying the foundations of DarpaNet (the beginning of the internet) and you couldn't actually network more than two PC's (via dial-up modem, at extremely limited speeds)

So? Don't get why this was mentioned here. True, though. IBM was investing in massive mainframes when they should have been working on smaller consumer/personal computers like everyone else. That's why they had to lay off a ton of people in the late eighties . oopsie! They never quite recovered.

ENCOM even had their own terminology for it, they called it Interlinking.

yeah but that could mean a lot of things. My printer and laptop are wirelessly interlinked. It doesn't mean they're the internet. All interlinking/wi-fi does really is get rid of the inconvenience of wires at distances of less than, say, 200 feet. That would hardly have been a serious advancement or bold idea in '85 when Flynn said he thought it up. By some standards, it's not even one now. My stepbrothers had wirelessly interlinked (though not digital) devices in 1982. They were called Fischer Price walkie talkies. Of course even they had more range than the average wifi antenna.

I think it wasn't a single computer hosting the Grid, post MCP, in fact, it was most likely a primitive hard-wired Beowulf Cluster, or, a Multi-processing super computer made by networking hundreds of lesser machines. The racks in Flynns lab are a testament to this, multiple mainboards and drives, networked together for the expressed purpose of task sharing. (much like modern cloud computing, but on a local LAN)

That's a given. I'm just saying the technology could have feasibly been alien. If Flynn did think it up on his own, he would have still worked on it in secret since he was way more pioneer than entrepreneur looking to cash in on the new tech.

The Tron SHIV laser has it's roots in reality. It was based on a real world project, known as the Shiva laser at the Lawrence Livermore Labs, which, at the time, was used as a location for shooting some scenes for the original TRON. It's definitely not from Area 51.

No, but it still could have been and probably was invented and assembled at Encom. It had to come from somewhere. It has been theorized that inventions we use every day-including, mainly microprocessors-were back-engineered from an alien spacecraft that crashed at Area 51, and that the work was done at Bell Labs. Over the next ten years Bell Labs doled out-and is still doling out- that technology as incredible new "inventions", including the microprocessor. Back then this was mind-blowing stuff, I mean real sci-fi come to life stuff. Absolutely mind blowing things, and it all sort of came out in a relatively short amount of time, and it came out almost exclusively from, well, Bell Labs. Just a theory. One I subscribe to.

Many also say that tech was used in the original space program. Tell me how in the late 60's NASA managed to send a man to the moon. It's the year 2013 and GM can't even make a drive train that'll last 200,000 miles. There is no way in H*LL they did all that spacecraft engineering in the 50's and 60's with slide rules, I mean, come on. They still haven't released some info on how they did the Mercury program to this day. Back-engineered alien tech, guys. I'm just syain'..........

Read all about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_laser

Not a bad article at all. Thanks.

Anyways, Flynn's experience in the original film was eluded to as more of a "Dream" in legacy, and was sort of his inspiration to create the Grid.

Hmmm. I sort of agree. The whole time he spent in the computer in Tron could have been a dream. Maybe after he was ZApped by the lazer, he was really sitting at the terminal working at defeating the MCP's dominance of the systems it controlled, and the MCP itself. The only flaw to that theory, and there may be an explanation, is when he was sitting at his real-world terminal talking to and directing Tron who was in the computer. That wasn't a dream. Or was it?
Legacy confuses the matter, in that, while Kevin did experience life inside the computer, the human mind interpreted the "Data" he encountered in the system as a certain experience. He tried to refine that experience, and re-tool a system to "Flesh it out" and make it more compatible with human "Wetware" (read up on human/machine interfaces, transumanism, etc) Hence, His work on grid 2.0.
Fair enough. I agree with that completely. Of course he could have jacked into the Grid Matrix-style, sitting in a chair the whole time with a cable stuck into the back of his head. Unfortunately, L left him with sort of having to have been sucked into the Grid in the more bodily sense. If it hadn't, his unfed, uncared-for body would have been found in skeletal form in his lab when Sam discovered it. No way that body could have sat there for 27 years. It would have died, and if you die in real life, you die in the Grid, if I may borrow from The Matrix.

Wanna take it to a level so high not even the Space Shuttle could touch it? Let's say all of T:L had occurred already, and Sam went on to make it so you could in fact jack into the Grid Matrix-style with your physical body laying on a table the whole time you consciousness was in the Tron universe. You see where i;m going with this, right? Then, far into the future, the Machine Nation described in The Animatrix took over the entire human race, stuck them in energy-sucking pods and used The Grid as the basis of The Matrix and strove ot keep their minds forever trapped in it to keep them from wanting to wake up. IOW: the Grid's technology was perverted to make The Matrix. Only Disney whoever produced the Matrix series would surely make Disney pay dearly for the rights.
With the quick advancement in networking (LAN networks via BNC cable was just staring to come into use in the private business sector at the time) as well as faster processors (The leap from 8086 processors, floppy disks and tape drives and 640K memory to 386 and 486 processors and larger memory modules, not to mention larger hard disks) could easily explain the leap in technology, Especially with the backing of a Bleeding-edge tech outfit like ENCOM backing the project.
I don't think even that technology could have supported what he was doing with the Grid 2.0. Something like the Grid would have to move info around in itself at an almost instant rate. Not that we don't have great advancements already, but it still took me at least 3 min to dl End Of Line from the iTunes server when it was available. That's glacially slow compared to what the Grid could have to do. That's why I say that tech came from an alien craft. I'm trying to work with the idea that the tech he was using was something so far beyond what we think of as a computer that we couldn't begin to understand it any more than the Wright brothers (who were NOT first in flight, just in controlled, powered, sustainable flight. GGGGR! I live in NC and wish they'd quit bragging abt it because them being first is a fallacy) could have imagined a 747.

I am sure someone out there has calculated just how many megabytes or even gigs of info the human mind has to recall from memory and at least process, then store in real time. I read somewhere that a lifetime of recorded consciousness would be in the petabyte range, though keep in mind (no pun intended) some of that data would fade over time, since our very memories do the same. But imagine all the processing power that would take. Then add millions of consciousnesses to the Grid in the form of programs. Each of them would have to be able to similarly do that in real time. Then add the simulation of the Grid itself running on top of it all. To make a computer that fast would require a processing speed so fast that it would *have* to make use of an ability to warp time itself, to use something *beyond* speed, to process it all. It would have to move data around faster than the speed of light within the computer, instantly in fact. Maybe even many times faster than the speed of light. One reason I say Flynn could not have developed such a system is that geniuses are frequently a little nuts, and for an earthly human genius to be *that* smart, they'd also be so bonkers they wouldn't be able to put on their own pants. So...aliens. This may have be one of the most interesting flights of fancy I've ever thought of. Of course Bell labs probably already has that sh*t. Or Apple maybe.

As for the graphic quality of the sim, one needs only look at the difference between Tron's CGI, and that used in films like The Last Starfighter and Young Sherlock Holmes (and that's from a film company, not a large tech firm) It's entirely feasible, especially when you consider the fictional company that made it all possible. ENCOM was supposedly the elite company in the game, that is, until Kevin Flynn went "missing".
If T was merely a dream, then there would have been no simulation at all, just a dream taking place in Flynn's mind. Of course Flynn could have/if he had dreamed all of T, then designed a dream-inspired inter-real-world computer that hosted an actual human consciousness. That would have been called Grid 1.0, the "old Grid". Then his developing, being captured in and then rescued from 2.0 was what T:L was all about. So I'm saying it was a dream about being sucked into a computer in T, then, inspired by the dream, he made Grid 1.o which he could enter into, then for whatever reason he had (is there a story in itself there as to why he abandoned Grid 1.0? he took it to the next level by making Grid 2.0. You could insert that between G1.0 and 2.0 is when he gained access to the alien technology that made 2.0 such an upgrade.



 



Posts: 0
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...
on Tuesday, April, 02, 2013 10:20 PM
Moses613 Wrote:
So? Don't get why this was mentioned here. True, though. IBM was investing in massive mainframes when they should have been working on smaller consumer/personal computers like everyone else. That's why they had to lay off a ton of people in the late eighties . oopsie! They never quite recovered.
Of course, ENCOM is not IBM. As far as I know, IBM made systems for business, whereas ENCOM started as a gaming company. I would guess they has different business models from the get go.
Believe it or not, I had a good friend who worked for IBM, they have many issues internally. I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.

yeah but that could mean a lot of things. My printer and laptop are wirelessly interlinked. It doesn't mean they're the internet. All interlinking/wi-fi does really is get rid of the inconvenience of wires at distances of less than, say, 200 feet. That would hardly have been a serious advancement or bold idea in '85 when Flynn said he thought it up. By some standards, it's not even one now. My stepbrothers had wirelessly interlinked (though not digital) devices in 1982. They were called Fischer Price walkie talkies. Of course even they had more range than the average wifi antenna.

Weren't we talking about the Grid here? the grid is a closed system, IE not the Internet. More like a LAN if anything.


That's a given. I'm just saying the technology could have feasibly been alien. If Flynn did think it up on his own, he would have still worked on it in secret since he was way more pioneer than entrepreneur looking to cash in on the new tech.
Really? you don't think it has anything to do with the fact that Dillinger tried to screw him over in the first movie? Getting your work and intellectual property stolen
would make you a little secretive about your pet projects too, don't you think?

No, but it still could have been and probably was invented and assembled at Encom. It had to come from somewhere.

The first Apple PC came from a garage. sometimes companies with lots of money and smart folks working for them come up with amazing things.




It has been theorized that inventions we use every day-including, mainly microprocessors-were back-engineered from an alien spacecraft that crashed at Area 51, and that the work was done at Bell Labs. Over the next ten years Bell Labs doled out-and is still doling out- that technology as incredible new "inventions", including the microprocessor. Back then this was mind-blowing stuff, I mean real sci-fi come to life stuff. Absolutely mind blowing things, and it all sort of came out in a relatively short amount of time, and it came out almost exclusively from, well, Bell Labs. Just a theory. One I subscribe to.

I have friends with security clearance, one who works at Rockwell. He can't even tell me what he does there. another friend of mine has a dad who worked for Argonne Natl. Labs; If you knew what this man has done in his career, it's blow your mind. none of it is from aliens. sorry.


Many also say that tech was used in the original space program. Tell me how in the late 60's NASA managed to send a man to the moon. It's the year 2013 and GM can't even make a drive train that'll last 200,000 miles.

Bull. Pure bull. Many GM drivetrains will last long past that point.

Show me a guy who's transmission breaks at 100K miles, and I'll show you someone who has never changed the trans fluid, transmission filter, or replaced his clutch.

An engine and tranny will last forever if you maintain it properly. I have a '37 Chevy coupe in my garage that is living proof.

Foreign cars are no better. Anyone who thinks this is clueless. Imports generally last longer because most foreign car makers offer free maintenance. I had a Toyota, and I never had to pay for an oil change on it; I just took it to the dealership.

And don't forget, how many nasa failures before they got anyone to the moon. Hell, one capsule burnt up on the ground, with astronauts in it!

Don't go there man. You're making a poor argument on this one.

Read all about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_laser

Not a bad article at all. Thanks.

I know right? cool stuff!

Anyway, To get right down to it, I just think it's a lot more "plausible" that Flynn found his "Grid 1.0" experience to be an epiphany. He wrote two books on the subject of his "Digital Frontier". Think of it like this: Einstein has several bouts of daydreaming that lead to his radical theories that changed the world forever. I think Flynn had a similar thing happen to him. It's certainly more plausible to me than, Flynn goes into the computer, hooks up with the people who run Area 51, and incorporates alien technology into the construction of the grid 2.0.

I'm not one of these folks who thinks humanity can achieve nothing without alien intervention. Don't get me wrong. I think Aliens exist. I am fairly sure that some have visited us. Perhaps the government has recovered some technology / alien contact, etc. but they have nothing to do with TRON in my book.

Isn't it bad enough that smoeone had to ruin Indiana Jones with that stuff?



 
BigE73
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Posts: 27
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...

on Tuesday, April, 02, 2013 10:23 PM
and with the above, I'm done with long posts. I always get logged out when I do. Somethings up with that man.


I can probably make make that, Just ask.
 
Kat
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Posts: 2,337
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...

on Tuesday, April, 02, 2013 10:55 PM
Moses613 Wrote:Fair enough. I agree with that completely. Of course he could have jacked into the Grid Matrix-style, sitting in a chair the whole time with a cable stuck into the back of his head. Unfortunately, L left him with sort of having to have been sucked into the Grid in the more bodily sense. If it hadn't, his unfed, uncared-for body would have been found in skeletal form in his lab when Sam discovered it. No way that body could have sat there for 27 years. It would have died, and if you die in real life, you die in the Grid, if I may borrow from The Matrix.

Wanna take it to a level so high not even the Space Shuttle could touch it? Let's say all of T:L had occurred already, and Sam went on to make it so you could in fact jack into the Grid Matrix-style with your physical body laying on a table the whole time you consciousness was in the Tron universe. You see where i;m going with this, right? Then, far into the future, the Machine Nation described in The Animatrix took over the entire human race, stuck them in energy-sucking pods and used The Grid as the basis of The Matrix and strove ot keep their minds forever trapped in it to keep them from wanting to wake up. IOW: the Grid's technology was perverted to make The Matrix. Only Disney whoever produced the Matrix series would surely make Disney pay dearly for the rights.

Ah, interesting. Fun idea. Remind me to tell you some time about the Tron/Matrix crossover I've got some work done on. I took it in a totally different direction than you did, but I'm glad other people are also thinking of how a crossover might work.


What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Moses613
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Posts: 272
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...

on Thursday, April, 04, 2013 9:28 PM
Well, tell me, I'm interested! You believe in it, so share it with us.

It feels strange to have the urge to write some fiction again, and just for fun. Used to do that all the time in HS but just sort of lost interest. But if there is one thing that inspires me, it's Tron. So I may as well run with it even though I'll never, due to copyright issues, I'll never be able to sell it or make a dime on it no matter ow good it is. Not all worthwhile endeavors bring about profitable results though. I shudn't let that stop me tho.


 
Kat
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Posts: 2,337
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...

on Saturday, April, 06, 2013 9:32 PM
I got a little stuck on it, to tell you the truth. In part because I wasn't sure how to make the two mesh all the way (with all of the Matrix films in mind) and in part because once I started writing, I realized there were a LOT of questions about life in Zion that I kept coming up with and couldn't answer. Also I suck at writing action scenes.

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Moses613
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Posts: 272
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...

on Thursday, April, 11, 2013 6:41 PM
The cool thing about sci-fi that anyone reading it has a very active imagination, so you don't *have* to go into a lot of detail about many plot points or how everything works. The authors of Tron didn't bother to explain everything concerning the how and why of that universe, which is why we find such enjoyment in doing it here with our own postulating. If they had stopped to explain everything down to why the suits glow, the movie would be like 30 hours long.

So don't let the perfect, as they say, be the enemy of the good! Hell, I barely understand how anything in *this* universe works anyhow.


 
Kat
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Posts: 2,337
RE: maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...

on Thursday, April, 11, 2013 7:38 PM
Moses613 Wrote:The cool thing about sci-fi that anyone reading it has a very active imagination, so you don't *have* to go into a lot of detail about many plot points or how everything works. The authors of Tron didn't bother to explain everything concerning the how and why of that universe, which is why we find such enjoyment in doing it here with our own postulating. If they had stopped to explain everything down to why the suits glow, the movie would be like 30 hours long.

So don't let the perfect, as they say, be the enemy of the good! Hell, I barely understand how anything in *this* universe works anyhow.

True, but some of it, I couldn't come up with a plausible explanation for. Like... what happens when you get sick? Where do they get medicine? Are they reduced to herbal remedies since there probably aren't pharmaceutical companies? What about birth control methods? Do they grow plants and such, and is that how they get clothing and other such items? Or do they just go up to the surface and raid all the places where people used to live to get stuff they need? Do they have ways of creating music? (some of this may be explained in the films and I just don't remember 'cause it's been so long since I've seen them.) I mean, you CAN sort of write to gloss over it, though it's often unsatisfying to do so... but sometimes you actually want to address one of those issues, and... it can be frustrating.

(I have SO hijacked this thread, lol. Sorry.)


What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
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 maybe they could have rounded out the plot with this just a little...