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TheJediUnit
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Posts: 474
Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Saturday, February, 22, 2003 8:05 PM
Well, with the Dillenger thread, this one was called for too since the same sorts of issues exist in reverse.

Alan described his Tron program to Dillinger as a "security program". He was writing it on company systems and on company time. It's clear to us that in actuality, "Tron" is a Trojan Horse set to destroy company property... a virus. That's criminal. Far more criminal than the mere ethical borderline infractions of the MCP or anything else at Encom. It's hardly aimed selectively at Dillinger or his (at best) gray areas of wrong doings. In truth, it would be the hordes of Encom employees that would pay the price for Alan's techno attack. More importantly, Alan wasn't even familiar with Flynn's problems, so he couldn't have been making Tron as an equalizer for Flynn's stolen programs. It seems more an act of pettiness, since Alan has his job and whatever access to the mainframe is not his business but instead executive business. As a matter of fact, the only gripe Alan has is his access being adjusted along with every other employee, but since it was in response to a hacker threat, what grounds has Alan, a payed employee, to stand in the way of resolving that? Any act against that is nothing more noble than willful, unwarranted destruction of company property.

Granted, Tron (dispite not being originally designed for such) 'just so happens' to have helped in Flynn's cause, but was Alan or his virus program an act of good from birth?

It doesn't look like it to me.

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"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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Compucore
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Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Saturday, February, 22, 2003 10:17 PM
I hat to disagree with you. It was a security program like the equivilant to a firewall that is used in todays software based firewalls on local home pc's. I know that there are hardware versions of firewalls. But in this case its the exception.

Tron in this case was to make sure that if any contact between Encoms computer and other computer were scheduled to make contact with each other okay. The ones that were not scheduled to do what ever was needed. To make sure that they didn't. That is where you have failed to understand the basic of why Tron was made... And don't tell me that you haven't thought of this in the first place. Its the basic thing to know when networking systems like this even back then.


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Compucore

VROOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!

To compute or not to compute that is the question at hand. Tis nobler to compile in C++ or in TASM.


 
TheJediUnit
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Posts: 474
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 8:37 AM
Er... you're right, I "didn't" think of that. You know why? It's not right.

Alan told Flynn that if he could just get to Tron "it would shut the MCP down for good."

Firewalls don't destroy the computer they're meant to protect, Compucore.

And I don't know if we're dealing with a communication breach or one of genuine attitude, but you seem to come off arrogant in many of your replies to other's mere attempts at pleasant conversation.

...oh, and could you please apply your computer expertise and fix your avatar? It's still the only one on the entire site that doesn't work at all.

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"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
Compucore
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Posts: 4,419
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 9:37 AM
I've already shown the others on how to get it into their cache on their computer system. I guess you were not there to see it when sketch or someone else had asked about the same thing. Open another browser on your computer system and put this link into it http://www26.brinkster.com/compucore/ICKarlb.jpg And it will be downloaded into your computer system. It'll work that way.

On the contrary THejedio unit they are meant to take the virus out of what ever program or file they are attached to when they come into the system there. What is a firewall is all about or an antivirus program does when checking for viruses.


I know we're only having a pleasant discussion about it. I'm just saying that I happen to disagree with you on it. There is nothing wrong in saying that. And saying that ahead of time to let you know that I don't happen to agree with you on it is okay as well. We are all aloud to believe in what we want.


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Compucore

VROOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!

To compute or not to compute that is the question at hand. Tis nobler to compile in C++ or in TASM.


 
TheJediUnit
User

Posts: 474
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 9:55 AM
Okay, I got the image to work now. It must have been because it was so big. It'd be simpler to just make the image the standard avatar size in the first place.

As far as the kind of file Tron is it's clear to me it's a Trojan Horse. It's perfectly clear the discription Alan's giving Dillinger about it's purpose is a firewall, but is only a half truth. That's the selling point to allow it's being created and put on the MCP. The 'underlying' purpose of it is to destroy the MCP in exactly how we see take place. It doesn't destroy the actual system, but that specific program. The way I see it, that's a Trojan Horse.

Surely you don't believe that Dillinger authorized Alan to develop a program designed to destroy the MCP too, do you?

On the matter of discussion, Compucore, I never have and never will insinuate anyone has to agree with me. I'd rather people not because the world would be a boring place with just one opinion. Only it's not THAT you disagree with me but HOW. I never attack anyone's level of knowledge in a broad, crude stroke as "That is where you have failed to understand the basic of why Tron was made" or predispose what you "thought of in the first place." I suppose you just don't appreciate how sharp that comes across on the other end here, but just so you know, it sounds cocky, and it's FAR from the first time, dispite being my first time to call you on it.

So, disagree all you like. In case you didn't notice, the topics I enjoy making DRAWS discussion and bouncing agreeing and disagreeing. But, let's just stick to the topic and not how much you think I don't understand and let's state our opinions nicely, okay?

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"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
Compucore
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Posts: 4,419
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 10:35 AM
Thats understandable. But I'm not expecting people to understand where I am coming from either. as well. I've been in the area of computer repairs. So sometime it may sound "Cocky." at times since I'm looking at it on a level that may not be too obvious to a regular person who hasn't had the type of experience like I have or others who have been in the same or similar fields as I have. Thats all I was trying to point out.


And I am always tryuing to stay on topic here in every post that is on here.

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Compucore

VROOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!

To compute or not to compute that is the question at hand. Tis nobler to compile in C++ or in TASM.


 
TheJediUnit
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Posts: 474
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 10:37 AM
You don't have to be a computer repair man to understand that Alan's program was deceptive to Dillinger. That's all I'm pointing out too.
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"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
Compucore
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Posts: 4,419
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 10:59 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one again. I don't think so. If one thing that Alan was trying to do was to protect the mainframe from that could have gone wrong. Like any activity between their system and other systems that were not suppose to happen. Its not really being desceptve. Its proctecting if anything the interests for the company mainframe..

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Compucore

VROOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!

To compute or not to compute that is the question at hand. Tis nobler to compile in C++ or in TASM.


 
TheJediUnit
User

Posts: 474
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 11:03 AM
Compucore Wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one again. I don't think so. If one thing that Alan was trying to do was to protect the mainframe from that could have gone wrong. Like any activity between their system and other systems that were not suppose to happen. Its not really being desceptve. Its proctecting if anything the interests for the company mainframe..


*sigh*

Alan: "If I could just get to Tron we could shut the MCP down for good!"

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"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
Compucore
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Posts: 4,419
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 11:32 AM
Take a look at what the MCP was doing That Dillinger help create to get him where it got him the position and what the MCP continued to do. The MCP could have breaking into it's competitions computer system, government agencies, foreign government computers and the what not. Convisgating programs. Or in this case copying programs onto its own hard drives. and incorporating those new software into its own code. Hence its growth of the MCP on the mainframe itself. When you had seem dillinger talking to the MCP. THe MCP was planning to break into the Pentagon. What tells us that the MCP hasn't done that with other government agencies. In fact the MCP already mentioned that he had broken into large corporations. And had shown also a picture of foreign coutnries. Meaning that he might have already gone into other government and stole programs from there.

The MCP was restricting access to the programmers themselves. So that it could incorporate the programs that the programmers were working on into itself.

I'm sure if you were programming like Alan or Flynn working for a company like Encom in the movie. Wouldn't you rather have a program that could be made available as a single program. And not as a package deal with something else that you don't really need. like the MCP If you wanted it with it then you can. But make sure that its available as a single package as well as a bundle deal. PLus what ever else he had incorporated during the time he was running throughout the movie.

The reason why Alan had stated that is to say basically that there should be no restriction on making a good program like. Since Trons main function was to protect the system and still make it worth while of having it as free as possible. Whether its to protect the company computer systems. Or its to be used along side other programs that you use on a daily basis. But to restrict the programmers to do something else that your being looked over the shoulder at everything you do. And saying with out a doubt. that sorry we;re not making anything that is really useful that is going to benifit other things that going benefit with what we have already.



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Compucore

VROOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!

To compute or not to compute that is the question at hand. Tis nobler to compile in C++ or in TASM.


 
TheJediUnit
User

Posts: 474
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 11:49 AM
While I clearly see the ethical and possible legal wrongdoings of the MCP and Dillinger, there are some points to make. Number one, two wrongs don't make a right. If Ford motor company had a secret program of stealing Chevrolet's manufacturing secrets it still doesn't make it legal for a Ford employee to set his CEO's office on fire. Number two, I don't believe Alan or any other employee was aware of any outside access the MCP could have been guilty of. But even if Alan was in the know it's his duty to report it to the authorities, not set out on a vindictive Trojan Horse manufacturing campaign to destroy someone else's property.

Your comment "The reason why Alan had stated that is to say basically that there should be no restriction on making a good program". Surely you don't talk like that to YOUR boss do you? If I told my boss I have a right to do my job how I see fit I'd be out on my keester with all the rest of the self-rightous know-it-alls that don't do as they're told to do their jobs. Alan's job isn't "make anything you like, just make it well." It's "make what you're told."

Besides, you need to address my point that Dillinger could NOT have known that Alan's "security program" was made to be capable of dismantling the MCP. How could Alan have admitted to that and how could Dillinger have authorized it? Please, comment on that point. Obviously, the answer is Alan DIDN'T tell Dillinger and if Dillinger knew it he'd have done more than cut Alan's access... he'd have handed him his last check and told him to move in with Flynn. And Dillinger would have written on Alan's termination papers "reason for firing: attempted destruction of company property." And he wouldn't have got an ounce of unemployment either! Probably he'd have been served papers to appear in criminal court immediately thereafter too.

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"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
Compucore
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Posts: 4,419
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 2:29 PM
TheJediUnit Wrote:While I clearly see the ethical and possible legal wrongdoings of the MCP and Dillinger, there are some points to make. Number one, two wrongs don't make a right. If Ford motor company had a secret program of stealing Chevrolet's manufacturing secrets it still doesn't make it legal for a Ford employee to set his CEO's office on fire. Number two, I don't believe Alan or any other employee was aware of any outside access the MCP could have been guilty of. But even if Alan was in the know it's his duty to report it to the authorities, not set out on a vindictive Trojan Horse manufacturing campaign to destroy someone else's property.

Your comment "The reason why Alan had stated that is to say basically that there should be no restriction on making a good program". Surely you don't talk like that to YOUR boss do you? If I told my boss I have a right to do my job how I see fit I'd be out on my keester with all the rest of the self-rightous know-it-alls that don't do as they're told to do their jobs. Alan's job isn't "make anything you like, just make it well." It's "make what you're told."

All in the programmers imagination when programming on the system. Its like me telling you. Okay take this picture and make this into a paint.,. But I'm not going to give you and anything that can you can use to get it done. Even if you could use find something in order to make the paint wouldn't be able to make it. THis is what the MCP was trying to do for those programmers on the Encom computer system.
Besides, you need to address my point that Dillinger could NOT have known that Alan's "security program" was made to be capable of dismantling the MCP. How could Alan have admitted to that and how could Dillinger have authorized it? Please, comment on that point. Obviously, the answer is Alan DIDN'T tell Dillinger and if Dillinger knew it he'd have done more than cut Alan's access... he'd have handed him his last check and told him to move in with Flynn. And Dillinger would have written on Alan's termination papers "reason for firing: attempted destruction of company property." And he wouldn't have got an ounce of unemployment either! Probably he'd have been served papers to appear in criminal court immediately thereafter too.

Anyway, please comment on that.

Who ever said that Tron was originally made to dismatle THe MCP THe origin of tron was probably asked by Alan Supervisor to create a program that would take care of any activities that were not schedule to run while the programmers were not that. And if the programs were not schedule to run they would be taken offline. (Not delete from the system.) And let the supervisors know who created the program to what ever activity that it was going to do. Not get done. Thats where tron was originally suppose to do. (Thats what I taking a look atr. Originally to make sure that any jobs that were crowned during downtime on the mainframe to get done. If there others that were not scheduled just close them done and let the admin know about it.) That was the whle purpose of having tron in the movie for. But in this case they made the villian od the MCP and dillinger.

I am aware that Dillinger didn't know about it. How could he. Only when he was told by alan. Dillinger didn't know that probably one of th supervisors had decided to do this.

By the way Tron isn't really a trojan horse. He would only shut the programms off when the program was not supposed to run. In this case I can understand you thinking of tron being a trojan. Because he delete the MCP. Most cases program in real mainframes and any other unix enviroment. They would just plainly stop the program. So I can see why your saying its a trojan hourse.


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Compucore

VROOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!

To compute or not to compute that is the question at hand. Tis nobler to compile in C++ or in TASM.


 
TheJediUnit
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Posts: 474
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 3:55 PM
"Who ever said that Tron was originally made to dismatle THe MCP?"




Who ever said it?






Who ever said it you ask?






Do I have to tell you!





TRON DID!!!

Flynn: "Well, uh, my user wants me to go after the MCP."
Tron: "So does mine!!!"
Flynn: "I know."

If Alan's program was as benign as you suggest it is, why wouldn't he be saying "I'm going after all unauthorized I/O usage" or whatever? Huh? Tron was expressing Alan's orginal programming plan from the start because HE'D BEEN CUT OFF ACCESS TO TRON BEFORE HE'D EVEN MET FLYNN and had no way of undoing it or making it pack more punch just because he'd been denied access! And what do you think Tron planned to do to the MCP? Give it a parking ticket? What do you think Tron DID to the MCP with that disk? That wasn't exactly Norton Optimizing goin' on there from what I could tell. That was death in whatever definition you call it... derezing... just plain permanant crashing. Right? Right.

*clears throat* *steps on soapbox* *announces triumphantly*

TROJAN HORSE!

*looking for other users responses...*

But getting back on topic, this wasn't meant as a study in Tron or his purpose. It's Alan. So, let's get back to him.

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"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
TheJediUnit
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Posts: 474
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 3:57 PM
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"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
KiaPurity
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Posts: 3,482
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 7:46 PM
Someone didn't close the quote tag so it messed up.


Anyway, perhaps, they couldn't have really written the script to refect the today's technology. They could only work with what they knew at that time.
Trojan didn't exist. Viruses didn't exist. Internet was barely a baby (after all, it was created in 1983...)... correction, make that a bit.
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Kia: Cool. I'm a infamous mythological perfect User.

 
TheJediUnit
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Posts: 474
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, February, 23, 2003 10:53 PM
I understand that, Kia, but there was enough understanding that stealing and destroying software was established and well known criminal premises.

While the program Tron may not have had a common pre-existing discriptive name, it's function and illegality was clear.

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"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
TheJediUnit
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Posts: 474
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Thursday, June, 17, 2004 1:49 PM
Are these two threads concidered dead now?

Nothing left to discuss?

They're my favorites.

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"Having is not as pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
--Spock
 
The Tweaker
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Posts: 0
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Friday, June, 18, 2004 1:45 PM
The way I see it is this:

Tron was originally created exactly the way Alan described him: as a general-purpose security program, with a side objective: "watchdog the MCP".

Then Flynn gets digitized, and Alan (still on the outside) somehow realizes that Flynn won't be able to leave the system with the MCP in the way. He instructs Tron, still stuck in the Game Grid, to neutralize the MCP at the first opportunity.

Now Tron has his new objective, and he (and Alan, and ROM) escape at the first opportunity and proceed onto their mission.

It's a rather tenous theory, but I like it better than "Alan is evil and Tron is a virus." buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
gl
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Posts: 0
Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Sunday, June, 20, 2004 6:16 PM
Obviously a topic designed to spark off discussion (you don't really mean it, right? ; ).

TRON is exactly what Alan describes to Dillinger:

(from memory): "it's a security program itself actually - finds anything unscheduled, it shuts it down. I sent you a memo about it."

So, it was written on company time, with full disclosure (even though Dillinger seems to have missed the memo) - clearly not a 'malicious' program of any kind.

About the point that TRON decides to go after the MCP, I think you're right to say that Alan already had his suspicions about the MCP, and that TRON was written to uncover any wrongdoings, and if they existed, shut it down (like any other programs). But that's cool, because the MCP was doing things it shouldn't have been - and by the time TRON was imprisoned by it, that was pretty clear to him : ).buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
The Tweaker
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Re: Was Alan all THAT noble?

on Monday, June, 21, 2004 2:34 AM
Yup, that would probably be accurate. Tron was supposed to shut down the MCP if it detected unauthorized activity-- stealing and imprisoning foreign programs would probably qualify. buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
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