Hmm. Yeah. It's just really hard to explain, I guess. I was looking for something like, not completely emotionless.. just limited to set amount of programming or something.

I'll just watch the movie again whenever I get free time from studying for finals. XP

I think you hit the nail on the head Conduit.

That's great, I appreciate your trying to make ammends.

We are all TRON fans here, and we don't mind other opinions at all, but when we get ours thrown back in our face we get kind of testy about it.

AS I have said several times, I think your POV on the film is a bit strange, but you have some interesting ideas.

Rather than discounting other viewpoints, how about we get back to seeing how your points might fit into the overall scheme of things?

I am sure most of us would rather discuss TRON rather than piss and moan at each other.

I apologize for treating you like a troll.

NOw, as to your AI theory.. Could you please re-present it?

Conduit said:
“the banking program that the MCP captures wasn't originally written at Encom”

What I can possibly theorize is this. According to Tron, the MCP loves to appropriate programs. Flynn’s games, big companies and possibly the Pentagon’s computer systems. Programs like ram and the guards where “appropriated” by the MCP or other ENCOM employees once they where inside the ENCOM 511 networks. This was done to infiltrate other systems, steal vital information or conduct artificial intelligence programming experiments on them. If deemed useless the MCP deleted them via the game grid as a “pirate program”.
For a file to be appropriated like say Flynn’s games it must remain in the ENCOM 511 network in the data banks of the MCP. This is also why I think Dillinger did not copy Flynn’s game files onto a disc like say a “DVD R” for safe keeping if Flynn would try to hack into ENCOM network systems memory banks.
I sometimes wish I could work for Hollywood and help Steven Lisberger write a sequel for Tron but I’m retired.

Yes. I'm thinking that the 5¼" floppy was beng introduced right then (It was 2 years before 1984's advent of the Mac, which had a 3½" disk drive).

I don't really know... the movie predates me by 7 years...

Conduit Wrote:I've thought about this, and I've realized that digitization can do a lot more than transport things. 3 facts: 1. Digitization turns physical objects into computer data 2. Computer data can be deleted 3. Computer data can be copied an indefinite amount of times. If digitizing technology were to come into common use, it would change just about every part of our world. We would no longer have to mine for minerals, to drill for oil, to cut down trees for wood, to farm for food. You could simply take what materials you had, digitize them, copy them, and dedigitize the copies. In addition to that, all the problems with trash would be solved. There would actually be an "away" for us to throw trash to: the recycle bin on our computers. Nuclear waste, one of the biggest problems with nuclear power, would become a non issue. However, if digitizing technology were to come into common use, the economic effects would be catastrophic. Mining companies, logging companies, oil companies, companies that make tools for all the previous industries, would all be put out of business. The entire agriculture industry would be destroyed. Then you have to factor in the damage digitization would do to the transportation industry that Tron Fanatic talked about. The job loss would be in the millions. Then there's the stock market. What would happen if the price of precious metal stocks plummeted because of their increased supply? Definitely nothing good. The economy would fall into a depression, at the very least.

I don't believe this is true, IIRC the organic components from digitization are held inside the laser while the data or instructions for recreating it go inside the computer. Thus you can't create anything without the necessary materials, and you can't restore a human being whose data (instructions) have been deleted, even with the organic components. That person is essentially, dead.

In Tron 2.0 the data wraiths presumably have backed up all
their bio data elsewhere.

Hmm. Well, I have my own take on this...bear in mind that these are all my own _opinions_. I am not trying to attack anyone else's point of view, merely state my own.

Okay. First of all, I always liked to think of the programs as all, regardless of where they were written, having not only intelligence but emotions or an incredible simulation thereof, all the time--whether there was a User around them at the time or not.

And, under my theories, I have an explanation for Clu. The way I see the programs is...well, they kind of have _limited_ free will. That is, when they're actually being given instructions by us they will do the best they can to follow them (unless something else blocks them), but _every single microsecond_ that we're not actually running their programs, they're having their own thoughts, emotions, whatever, and doing their own thing. It's like--although I hate to use a more modern thing as my example, but it works to illustrate this point--the Sims. When you're directly giving them an order they at least try to do it, but the second you lay off the whip they start wandering off to do their own individual things. Sometimes if something is really bothering them they won't even _try_ to follow your orders. And there are some things they can ONLY do on their own, that you can't order them to do at all (at least, not without hacking/cheating).

Bear in mind how much faster the timeframe is inside a computer, even in 1982. Even one minute when you're not giving orders to a program is long enough for them to have a conversation with a program, get into a relationship with them, get the equivalent of married, find out that they've been cheating on you with that cute little lightcycle program from the next sector over, cheat on them back with a hunky tank program, and end up tossing each other's digital furniture out the window of your home microsector. Okay, I'm being silly with that example. But you get what I mean. :P

So. Anyway, as I see it, programs act like themselves when left alone, but since they are, well, _programs_, they snap into Business Mode when actually being given orders, like it or not. I like to think that Clu's robotic voice when Flynn was actually running him is because that's his "Talking-to-Humans" voice. You know how you automatically act way more formal and professional when you know a much higher-ranking boss is watching you directly, at work? And then when they leave it's back to Cheetos, feet up on the desk and did you catch that last episode of Battlestar last night. I like to think that Clu was talking that way only because he was actually being run, by a User, at that time. IF we had been able to see him when Flynn wasn't directly at the keyboard, and also when he wasn't being tortured, I'd like to think he'd hang out, maybe read an electronic book, say hi to people, ya know.

And of _course_ he sounded emotional when being tortured--wouldn't you? If there was ever a time to act emotional, that would be it! :P

I realise this is not really proven (or disproven!) directly, by the movie, but I just _like_ to think that the programs are people too, because...it's more fun. (shrug) ("But I am real...just different!")

Now, as for how much the programs have in common with their users, personality-wise, I like to think of it as kind of the same situation as with two copies of the same person who were raised in alternate universes. I've written that kind of sci-fi before, and when _I_ write it, both versions of a person start off with the same personality traits, BUT, the different societies they grow up in twist those traits in new directions, maybe greatly magnifying one trait and burying or near-destroying another. For example, someone who is naturally ambitious and grows up in a happy environment with money might end up being the mostly-benevolent CEO of a large company; whereas that exact same person growing up in a _dark_ situation might turn tha

Who, me? Or everybody here?

I suggest you talk to other people; my theories about how things "worked" in the digital world are based _entirely_ off of how I subjectively saw the movie, not any knowledge of the original script, how lasers work, etc. I wrote a goofy fanfic once, but it was a comedy (yes, really) and written all in one day. On the Fourth of July. I also once wrote a fanfic (for a different universe) all on April Fool's. Don't know what's up with that. :P

How much Tron fanfic is out there, anyway, I wonder...(I know this is off topic, but I do wonder.)

Anyway. I've put WAY too much line feed into this topic already. Time to cease operations of my output terminal. :P

...Notorious

Doug Jacoby Wrote:Emotions are evident that they exist in the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser. For instance: The MCP stated to Dillinger "It felt like Flynn". "Felt" would very much imply a feeling or emotion. When Clu was tortured by the MCP he was screaming, howling and shouting. In fact if you look closely at your TV screens Clu almost sheds a small tear drop at the corners of his eyes. Screaming and crying implies emotions and feelings. These two examples prove that the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser had a computer simulated world where programs had artificial emotions. Flynn did not bring feelings or emotions into the ENCOM super computer world because both of my above examples occurred well before Flynn was zapped into the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser. The programs that are written into the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser like Yori, and Clu had its users take charge of what type of artificial persona they may have. This is evidence that personalities could be programmable via artificial intelligence with the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser. This type of advance programming could only exist for employees of ENCOM using the ENCOM super computer / MCP and its laser. Not for any other type of common computer. Other than that it's really hard to accept the movie Tron to be a legitimate faction of Science Fiction or Fantasy. There are so many "loose edges" and "questions left unanswered" to be debated to utter death until we are all blue in the face. Too many things are left to interoperation. The movie Tron is best enjoyed when you are young to have fun and experience amazing action scenes. Unfortunately the movie Tron does not seem to work out side of this as far as expanded universes or have plausible scientific explanations. Even under the genre of Fantasy. I like the movie Tron. I like to have fun, enjoy great special effects and marvel how advanced it was especially for its time. I enjoy the movie Tron's acting and thank everyone who had a hand in it. Not since "Flash Gordon 1980" was there a Fantasy movie that just offered sheer fun. I would request to further debate this in this sites chat room. I will no longer debate this as posts. Thanks

Doug:

When the MCP states, "It felt like Flynn" he was not saying that he feels like Flynn, but rather that he SENSED it was Flynn trying to hack into the system. The MCP says this when Dillinger asks him who he thinks is trying to hack into the system. You may want to watch TRON again.

With all due respect, Doug, I have to agree with DaveTRON as he KNOWS Lisberger personally, and has a HUGE archive of all things TRON, as he said. You might want to go to Dave's website and check out all the images of all the TRON stuff he's collected over the years. Dave is a living, breathing, walking TRON encyclopedia.