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DaveTRON
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 3:03 AM
Doug,

While I enjoy a healthy debate, I am not enjoying debating with you because you refuse to accept facts right in front of your face.

I have all of the original scripts for TRON, I've read every one of them. Steven Lisberger and I have discussed a lot of these points and I know pretty well what was intended in these scenes.

You have a view of the film that I have never heard from anyone else. That's your perogative, but your method of dealing with our POVs sucks. The facts we need are right there in the film. A film you misquote and obviously haven't watched nearly as much as some of the rest of us.

It ceases to be a debate when one side starts telling everyone else they are wrong. You have some good and interesting alternate viewpoints, but if you aren't willing to see ours, I am no longer going to discuss it with you.

Watch the movie man.where to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlinemedical abortion pill online abortion pill buy abortion pills online

DaveTRON

 
Doug Jacoby
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 12:22 PM
Emotions are evident that they exist in the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser.

For instance:

The MCP stated to Dillinger "It felt like Flynn".

"Felt" would very much imply a feeling or emotion.

When Clu was tortured by the MCP he was screaming, howling and shouting.
In fact if you look closely at your TV screens Clu almost sheds a small tear drop at the corners of his eyes.

Screaming and crying implies emotions and feelings.

These two examples prove that the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser had a computer simulated world where programs had artificial emotions.

Flynn did not bring feelings or emotions into the ENCOM super computer world because both of my above examples occurred well before Flynn was zapped into the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser.

The programs that are written into the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser like Yori, and Clu had its users take charge of what type of artificial persona they may have.

This is evidence that personalities could be programmable via artificial intelligence with the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser.

This type of advance programming could only exist for employees of ENCOM using the ENCOM super computer / MCP and its laser. Not for any other type of common computer.

Other than that it's really hard to accept the movie Tron to be a legitimate faction of Science Fiction or Fantasy.

There are so many "loose edges" and "questions left unanswered" to be debated to utter death until we are all blue in the face.

Too many things are left to interoperation.

The movie Tron is best enjoyed when you are young to have fun and experience amazing action scenes.

Unfortunately the movie Tron does not seem to work out side of this as far as expanded universes or have plausible scientific explanations. Even under the genre of Fantasy.

I like the movie Tron. I like to have fun, enjoy great special effects and marvel how advanced it was especially for its time.

I enjoy the movie Tron's acting and thank everyone who had a hand in it.

Not since "Flash Gordon 1980" was there a Fantasy movie that just offered sheer fun.

I would request to further debate this in this sites chat room.

I will no longer debate this as posts.


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Sketch
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Posts: 2,938
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 12:39 PM
Doug Jacoby Wrote:The movie Tron is best enjoyed when you are young to have fun and experience amazing action scenes.

Unfortunately the movie Tron does not seem to work out side of this as far as expanded universes or have plausible scientific explanations. Even under the genre of Fantasy.


Ah, but I beg to differ. From the artistic standpoint, Tron offers some very deep artistic interpritations of representing a computer world and it's inner workings. Would talk more about them, but right now I must get to class.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue_bezel/
 
DaveTRON
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Posts: 5,305
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 3:42 PM
Emotions are evident that they exist in the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser.

For instance:

The MCP stated to Dillinger "It felt like Flynn".

"Felt" would very much imply a feeling or emotion.

When Clu was tortured by the MCP he was screaming, howling and shouting.
In fact if you look closely at your TV screens Clu almost sheds a small tear drop at the corners of his eyes.

Screaming and crying implies emotions and feelings.

These two examples prove that the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser had a computer simulated world where programs had artificial emotions.

If a program like the MCP developed sentience, then wouldn't it be natural that programs other than the MCP would have some intelligence and therefore, feelings too? Or at least the capacity for them?

It's obvious in the film that programs inter-related and have alliances, friendships and in their way, love. There wouldn't be a story if they didn't.

What I don't agree with is that it's due to either the hardware of the system or the MCP itself. There is nothing in the film to back you up on that.

What there is in the film is the connection between User and Program like the connection between a God and Human that creates an emotional connection for Programs. When Flynn comes into that world, he brings with him new emotions that they have never experieinced because they have never seen a User before.

The kiss is obviously something new to Yori and TRON, so Flynn has, in a way, programmed it into their systems from now on.

TRON was trapped in the Game Grid for a long time, the movie makes that clear, so was RAM. Why hadn't he escaped before Flynn arrived? Flynn's presence and different approach to the world around him gave TRON a reason to try harder to escape, and when they were on the Lightcycle Grid, they did.

Flynn did not bring feelings or emotions into the ENCOM super computer world because both of my above examples occurred well before Flynn was zapped into the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser.

As I said above, Flynn added to what limited emotions they may have already had, but he did change their dynamic by his presence.

The programs that are written into the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser like Yori, and Clu had its users take charge of what type of artificial persona they may have.

This is evidence that personalities could be programmable via artificial intelligence with the ENCOM super computer / MCP laser.

This type of advance programming could only exist for employees of ENCOM using the ENCOM super computer / MCP and its laser. Not for any other type of common computer.

First off, the only things to transport via the laser are the Orange and Flynn. The Orange came back out almost as quickly as it went in. I doubt it made much of an impact to the Programs. Flynn went in and lived among them for a time.

As I have stated several times now, the Programs prior to Flynn had their routines, and a basic set of 'emotions' but not much beyond that. It's not established in the story at all what their emotional awareness is, it's only alluded to, which is why we are debating this topic in the first place I suppose. Flynn adds to their emotions when he joins the story inside the computer (they are not in the laser, they are in the mainframe computer that runs it all). Their emotions are a way of making their inter-relation to each other as programs work for the story. If they were just robotic and systematic they'd be boring. The fact that they take on a subset of the personality of their real world User is brilliant in my opinion.

Other than that it's really hard to accept the movie Tron to be a legitimate faction of Science Fiction or Fantasy.

I totally disagree.

There are so many "loose edges" and "questions left unanswered" to be debated to utter death until we are all blue in the face.

Well, we would withwhere to buy abortion pills online http://www.extrageek.com/template/default.aspx?an-abortion-pill buy abortion pills online

DaveTRON

 
Sketch
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Posts: 2,938
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 4:08 PM
I'm not sure Dave. A debate is better suited in forum posts I think.

This debate is in too many fragments right now. I can't decide what to answer first.where to buy abortion pills online order abortion pill buy abortion pills onlineonline purchase abortion pill i need to buy the abortion pill abortion pill online purchase

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MutoidMan
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Posts: 2,231
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 4:37 PM
I'm with DaveTRON. I vote troll.where to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlinei need to buy the abortion pill how to order the abortion pill online order abortion pill

"We are, after all, not God." - Cmdr. J. J. Adams
"C is for cookie. That's good enough for me." - Cookie Monster
"If money is the root of all evil, I'd like to be a bad, bad man." - Huey Lewis & the News

Most recent PC game collection update:
04/12/2012. Check it out!
 
harpo989
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 4:42 PM
Dave,
I hate to speak third person about someone who can read this, however I believe that Doug is not a troll, or rather he came here not intending to be one.
However, this could be the infancy (or rather, birth) of a troll- and I would forewarn Doug that such behavior that he has been exhibiting is either the infancy of troll-ness, which I would warn to avoid,
-Or,
This could be the situation of a sophisticated Troll... Which I have never heard of before.

Doug,
My advice would be this- Before you debate with other members, Watch Tron again. you will see what we're talking about more clearly. And I mean actually sit down and take the whole movie in, not read about it on a film site or something similar. Also, please try to consider other people's points, not just your own. Being willing to listen to and accept other people's ideas is especially integral in a debate like this, wherein you are clearly unfamiliar with the scource material. (which, in this case, is "Tron")where to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlineabortion pills abortion pill abortion pills onlinewhere to buy abortion pills online link pill for abortion onlineonline purchase abortion pill abortion pill abortion pill online purchase

------------
Harpo989: The original fConer. (Now with (0rr[up73d fruit flavoring!)
 
MutoidMan
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Posts: 2,231
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 5:43 PM
One thing I saw I wanted to comment on...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I saw there was never any inkling in TRON that it was possible to "dedigitize" something that was never digitized in the first place. There was also never any hint that one could make copies of something that had been digitized.

Remember, Walter said a digitized object's molecules remain suspended in the laser until the program plays out and the molecules fall back into place.

This explanation precludes the "dedigitizing" of anything that was not a physical object that had already been digitized. It also means you cannot make a copy of digitized objects; where would the additional molecules come from?

Now, events in TRON 2.0 call for a deeper investigation of the digitizing process.

The fact that Thorne degraded and derezzed begs the question of what happened to his molecules? If the molecular storage medium is in fact the same in TRON 2.0 as in TRON (and there is nothing in TRON 2.0 to indicate otherwise), then his molecules are still suspended in a laser somewhere at fCon without a program to tell them what place to fall back into.

There are other questions.

Is there a time limit on how long an object's molecules can remain suspended in the laser?

If there is a time limit, what happens? Do the molecules begin to break down into atoms and dissipate? If the molecules can break down or are somehow lost, I would assume this means that the object's redigitization program now has nothing to work with, and can no longer run successfully. Is this what happened to Thorne? Did the failed digitization somehow fail to suspend his molecules, in addition to corrupting the redigitization program? This could be why it was impossible to bring him back.

Heck, what happens if the power goes out and the laser is shut off? I'm thinking a user or object can survive in the electronic world without their molecules suspended in a laser somewhere, but for how long? Is there a direct link? If not, how long could a user survive? Would said user retain their sanity knowing they could never return to the physical world?

This also brings into question the fate of the 3 fCon executives. Are their molecules indeed stored in the portable storage device that Alan took with him, or does it just hold the programs that tell their molecules how to reform? I'm betting it's the programs and not their molecules.

If this isn't the case, then the digitization process is the most versitile and powerful device ever invented; deus ex machina, if you will.

DaveTRON, being that you have access to more TRON info than just about anybody whose name isn't Steven Lisberger, I'd love to hear your take on this.where to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills online

"We are, after all, not God." - Cmdr. J. J. Adams
"C is for cookie. That's good enough for me." - Cookie Monster
"If money is the root of all evil, I'd like to be a bad, bad man." - Huey Lewis & the News

Most recent PC game collection update:
04/12/2012. Check it out!
 
TheReelTodd
Sector Admin

Posts: 0
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 6:18 PM


This thread went from very interesting cool theoretical discussion, to shared and varied opinions, to some "I really like TRON, but I don't like this about it and I hate that about it, and this is too vague so I'll fill in my own blanks like this and there can be no other plausible interpretations... but I really like TRON" and then some excellent rebuttals, and then more unfortunate "you've failed, and I'm right, and TRON has too many unexplained problem areas that I must fill in like I do, but I really like it"...

I'm sorry. I kind of find it amusing.

I LOVE TRON so much, and the personification of programs as people and their ties to their Users, and the whole concept of what TRON is - both it's universe (or rules if you will) and fantastic story.

Are you a troll Doug Jacoby? Are you here to stir up trouble? If so, you're just wasting your time. The members here will grow bored of you very quickly if you exhibit troll-like behavior. If you're not a troll, take it easy, man! TRON is just a movie - meant to be fun and inspiring (in my opinion). Sure - it's an awesome philosophy as well, with a fantastic premise and story, and amazing visuals (for the time, and even today). But it's just a work of entertainment. It was never meant to be a 100% solid explanation for what goes on inside the digital world and how programs might "feel" and spell out every exact detail of what a digitized User can do inside the digital world. It's a story and a fantastic journey for you to take each time you watch it. I'm with DaveTRON in the whole "I don't want TRON to spell it all out" end. I enjoy the film for what it is, the philosophy behind it, and the cool visuals, and the great fun it is.

I really wanted to jump in to this discussion before it got to the "no - you are wrong and you fail to illustrate your point" crap. Once that happened, I had no desire to share how I see TRON. Of course, DaveTRON really nailed much of what I would have said anyway... and he added a lot of great things I would not have thought of.


DaveTRON Wrote:I am asking my fellow TRON Sector members what they think. Am I reading this guy all wrong, or do you guys see a TROLL in disguise here? I personally smell troll.

I don't know.

I'm thinking Doug Jacoby is a TRON fan who may be a little confused about what he likes and dislikes about the film and how he has interpreted certain elements. I think he brings up interesting points, thought some of them seem off and inaccurate. Everyone is allowed their opinions.

Again, I'm not sure we have a troll here. I'm more inclined right now to think he's been met here with responses he didn't expect and doesn't agree with. Perhaps he feels put on the defensive.

One thing is for sure. We all get along rather well here and show great respect for each member here. Those who have difficulty getting along don't last too long and are not missed when they leave.

Doug - if you really dig TRON and like what The Sector has to offer, just take it easy and be cool. We're all friends here
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TheReelTodd
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Posts: 0
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 6:20 PM
MutoidMan Wrote:One thing I saw I wanted to comment on...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I saw there was never any inkling in TRON that it was possible to "dedigitize" something that was never digitized in the first place. There was also never any hint that one could make copies of something that had been digitized...

Excellent point, MutoidMan! I wanted to comment on that before this thread got all pushy.

EDIT:

Ok, I wanted to also bring this up: I never thought that programs could be "digitized" or materialized in the real world, because they were never people or "real world" objects to begin with. In the digital world they're not people either. I believe that they are only interpreted as people by a digitized person. When one is digitized and exists as data and computations, it seems logical that the experience of interacting with programs may be interpreted as interacting with what the mind is familiar with - people. So programs are not essentially digital people running about inside the computer, but only seen as such by a person who has been digitized themselves and perceives them that way.

Other elements in the digital world may very well be seen my a digitized person exactly as they are in the digital world. Like the light cycles - they were designed and programmed to have that shape and are seen in the digital world, as they have been programmed to be seen. Actually, I don't think it mentions in the film that light cycles are intended (via programming) to look that way, I am working under the premise that it is implied because they are "cycles" and do look like cycles. But I think I made the point I was trying to make.

Now even though light cycles are programmed to be a specific shape, I still don't think they could be materialized in to the real world, because they were never made out of physical molecules and no matter has been programmed in to them. Nor do I think that programming "matter" would be possible given the level of technology displayed in TRON - just digitizing it and rematerializing it, but not programming it. Again - my own opinions based on my observation and interpretation of the film.

This is fascinating to ponder!
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Conduit
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 7:28 PM
Good points, Mutoid. One thing though. I may be remembering wrong, but did any of the digitizing team ever mention its ability to turn objects into computer data? They may not have known about it. Also, I don't remember them ever saying precisely who came up with the principles behind digitization.

Here's my theory (and its quite possible that I'm completely wrong on this, but bear with me): After the MCP gained sentience and a direct connection with the world of the users, he was curious about the physical universe, as you'd expect him to. He tries to learn as much as he can, especially about the things a calculation program like him can understand best, the laws of physics. After learning them what we already know, he decides to learn more about them himself. Armed with an ability to complex calculations without any chance of error, his knowledge of the laws of physics increases to a point which would take us decades, maybe even centuries to find out. One thing he learns is of particular interest to him, that if you had a laser at exactly the right wavelength you can turn matter into a small amount of electricity which can be imported into a computer and converted to binary code. You would also be able to do the same thing in reverse, turning binary code into matter (this would be much harder than converting matter into binary code, but it would be possible). Realizing the potential of this, he tells his findings to Dillinger, who sets up a research team who will make the equipment necessary for digitization. They didn't want to let the research know what the true purpose of the project, fearing a leak (after all, if digitizing were found to be possible it'd force us to rewrite most of our knowledge of the laws of physics), so they tell them the most plausible explanation: that they're working on what is essentially a teleportation device. The rest is history.

MutoidMan Wrote:One thing I saw I wanted to comment on...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I saw there was never any inkling in TRON that it was possible to "dedigitize" something that was never digitized in the first place. There was also never any hint that one could make copies of something that had been digitized.

No matter whether my theory is wrong or right, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to copy something that's digitized, after all, it is computer data. Whether you're able to dedigitize it is another matter.

Another thing, if the digitized person's molecules were kept suspended in a laser, they would have to be dedigitized out of the same laser they were digitized in, but Jet was dedigitized out of a different laser, at a different site, no less. Unless the fCon team moved the molecules, but why would they do that?where to buy abortion pills online http://www.extrageek.com/template/default.aspx?an-abortion-pill buy abortion pills onlinewhere to buy abortion pills online abortion pill pill for abortion online


 
MutoidMan
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Posts: 2,231
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 11:08 PM
TheReelTodd Wrote:Ok, I wanted to also bring this up: I never thought that programs could be "digitized" or materialized in the real world, because they were never people or "real world" objects to begin with. In the digital world they're not people either. I believe that they are only interpreted as people by a digitized person.

That's pretty close to what I think TheReelTodd.

The ENCOM 511 (or any other system) isn't running any sort of simulation. What we see is how the programs perceive their environment. Whether or not what a digitized user perceives is the same as what programs perceive is debatable.

I do think that programs and digitized users do perceive the electronic environment in the same way. This is because when there are only programs interacting or appearing in a scene in the movie or in the PC game, what the viewer (that's you or I) sees never changes. This is why I think the perception of the electronic world is uniform.

This is not necessarily so in other sci-fi electronic worlds, e.g. in the Matrix some may see what we consider the "real world" view while others may see the "code flowing over a green background" view.

Conduit Wrote:No matter whether my theory is wrong or right, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to copy something that's digitized, after all, it is computer data. Whether you're able to dedigitize it is another matter.

Another thing, if the digitized person's molecules were kept suspended in a laser, they would have to be dedigitized out of the same laser they were digitized in, but Jet was dedigitized out of a different laser, at a different site, no less. Unless the fCon team moved the molecules, but why would they do that?

I'm not sure that you can copy the dedigitization program, which is what I think the user in a system basically is. If it was possible, travel into and out of the electronic world would be a whole lot safer, since you could always be restored to the state in which you digitized into the system if anything went wrong. Data Wraiths automatically dedigitize rather than let their programs deteriorate to the point that they derez (I think.) If their programs could be copied, they could derez without dedigitizing and simply rerez and keep fighting.

That does bring up an interesting thought though. What if your dedigitization program could be copied? What if you dedigitized, but your copy was not erased. Would it be free to roam about the system? Would it resent you for not being able to escape into the real world? Would erasing it be tantamount to murder? Or suicide? What if you digitized and it dedigitized, leaving you stranded? Would it be you? Creepy stuff! Better off you can't be copied, I think.

The dedigitizing of Jet from a different laser is not impossible and does not go against the known rules of digitizing as laid down by Walter.

In TRON, during the orange test they talked about the intended purpose of the digitizing technolgy, which was to digitize something in one location and dedigitize it in another location, essentially making it a type a of matter transporter. Notice I did not say matter rearranger.

Let me start by saying that I'm not a proponent of making up stuff just to cover logic and/or continuity holes in a piece of sci-fi. See my review of Terminator 3 for proof. If it doesn't work and there isn't an extremely simple explanation (e.g. Jeff Bridges slipping into the character of Flynn while playing Clu was by accident, so I can ignore the mistake and not feel the need to make up stuff to justify it) then I'll recognize it as an unexplainable error, and my opinion of that piece sci-fi will be lowered accordingly.

However, this is not a logic or continuity hole. We were told flat out it can be done, we were simply not told how. Therefore, I think I can venture a guess as to how transporting the molecules from one location to another iorder abortion pill abortion pill buy online where to buy abortion pillwhere to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlinei need to buy the abortion pill read here order abortion pill

"We are, after all, not God." - Cmdr. J. J. Adams
"C is for cookie. That's good enough for me." - Cookie Monster
"If money is the root of all evil, I'd like to be a bad, bad man." - Huey Lewis & the News

Most recent PC game collection update:
04/12/2012. Check it out!
 
Conduit
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Posts: 0
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Tuesday, December, 07, 2004 11:24 PM
I watched Tron again tonight, and there is not even a suggestion that digitizing could turn a physical object into computer data beyond the name until Flynn is digitized. They talk about how they're turning "something into nothing" right before the orange test and Walter explains to Alan what exactly it does. Walter's explanation does tell us how it could transport things, but he never says anything about how it could turn physical objects into binary code. He doesn't mention any dedigitization programs being created either.

MutoidMan Wrote:I'm not sure that you can copy the dedigitization program, which is what I think the user in a system basically is. If it was possible, travel into and out of the electronic world would be a whole lot safer, since you could always be restored to the state in which you digitized into the system if anything went wrong. Data Wraiths automatically dedigitize rather than let their programs deteriorate to the point that they derez (I think.) If their programs could be copied, they could derez without dedigitizing and simply rerez and keep fighting.

That does bring up an interesting thought though. What if your dedigitization program could be copied? What if you dedigitized, but your copy was not erased. Would it be free to roam about the system? Would it resent you for not being able to escape into the real world? Would erasing it be tantamount to murder? Or suicide? What if you digitized and it dedigitized, leaving you stranded? Would it be you? Creepy stuff! Better off you can't be copied, I think.

If it's made out of binary code, it can be copied, plain and simple, its not disputable. Maybe there is some copy protection added to objects when they're digitized, but that can be deactivated if you're a good enough programmer, and the digitization can be set to not add the copy protection. Maybe Fcon was worried about the issues you brought up in the second paragraph, after all, what are you supposed to do with the copies, just tell them "Wait here until your original needs a replacement." I also imagine it would make them at least a little unwilling to fight if they knew they were copies of someone, at the very least it would hurt morale. I disagree about digitization being safer if you could copy yourself. If something did go wrong, you would still die, but someone else who was an exact copy of you would replace you.abortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortionwhere to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills online


 
Doug Jacoby
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Wednesday, December, 08, 2004 12:54 AM
You know I have thought a lot about Tron. May not have seen as much but have pondered on its sub themes a lot you know.

You know I'm a scientist and IT professional. I regard Tron's laser to be very real and is what jogged me to research the filed of lasers and engineering.

Still, in 2002, scientists at the Australian National University, building on research by the California Institute of Technology, said they had succeeded in the "quantum teleportation'' of a beam of laser light.

The process involved breaking up the beam containing data and reconstructing an exact replica a yard away, although the scientists note on a Web site presentation that doing the same with a human would be as difficult as traveling from one end of the universe to the other.

The challenges involve the whole spectrum of physics and mathematics, including information theory, quantum mechanics, Einstein's relation between mass and energy, elementary particle physics, and more.

The key question the transporter forces us to address is the following: Faced with the task of moving from the ship to a planet's surface roughly 1028 (1 followed by 28 zeroes) atoms of matter combined in a complex pattern to make up an individual human being, what is the fastest and most efficient way to do it?

A potentially revolutionary concept, at least so claimed by various digital-media gurus, is that the atoms themselves are often secondary. What matters more are the bits.

The thing is all of this is possible you know it's not just a game.

DaveTron the last time I checked this website it was free and open to the public.

May I remind you this site is NOT an official website produced by Steven Lisberger or Disney.

That being the case:

I really don't appreciate you calling me a "Troll" and a piece of produce, that being a "bad egg" humiliating me in public.

Unless you are actually Steven Lisberger or Bonnie Mac bird I don't see how you can take anything I write as being personally upsetting to you or making you being offended in any way shape or form.

Unless you charge people for posting or publicly make a disclaimer that you "own" rights to the movie Tron I see no basis for you to use such tone against me.

You site reasons but do not have answers.

You keep making me guess over and over again. Other than saying "no" you don't back up your examples.where to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlinei need to buy the abortion pill abortion pill order abortion pillmedical abortion pill online abortion pill buy abortion pills online


 
MutoidMan
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Posts: 2,231
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Wednesday, December, 08, 2004 1:08 AM
Conduit Wrote:I watched Tron again tonight, and there is not even a suggestion that digitizing could turn a physical object into computer data beyond the name until Flynn is digitized. They talk about how they're turning "something into nothing" right before the orange test and Walter explains to Alan what exactly it does. Walter's explanation does tell us how it could transport things, but he never says anything about how it could turn physical objects into binary code. He doesn't mention any dedigitization programs being created either.

O.K., so I watched TRON again today too.

Walter says that "A laser dismantles the molecular structure of the object, and molecules remain suspended in the laser beam. Then, when the computer plays out the model, the molecules fall back into place, and voilá!"

So either this "model" is a database of some sort created from data generated by the laser when it initially reads an object's structure that a standard dedigitization program reads in order to correctly reassemble the suspended molecules, or it is a special custom program within which that same data generated by the laser is hard-coded (hence I call it a dedigitization program.)

Either way, it is a digital representation of an object's physical being, not the physical being itself. Therefore, we can safely assume that a person's consciousness does not reside in the laser with their molecules. Instead, it somehow goes with the digital representation.

Conduit Wrote:If it's made out of binary code, it can be copied, plain and simple, its not disputable. Maybe there is some copy protection added to objects when they're digitized, but that can be deactivated if you're a good enough programmer, and the digitization can be set to not add the copy protection. Maybe Fcon was worried about the issues you brought up in the second paragraph, after all, what are you supposed to do with the copies, just tell them "Wait here until your original needs a replacement." I also imagine it would make them at least a little unwilling to fight if they knew they were copies of someone, at the very least it would hurt morale. I disagree about digitization being safer if you could copy yourself. If something did go wrong, you would still die, but someone else who was an exact copy of you would replace you.

True, any digital data that we're familiar with can be copied.

But, I don't recall there being any mention of the possibility of anyone making any copies of a person's "model" or dedigitization program in either TRON or TRON 2.0. So until some mention of that possibility is made in either in a TRON sequel or TRON 2.0 sequel, I won't assume it's a given.

If copying is possible...

I don't think a person would necessarily die if the original version of their digital representation is derezed. The act of copying the representation may link their conciousness with the copy, allowing them to contine to exist within the system as long as a copy of their digital representation is intact.abortion pills online abortion questions cytotec abortionwhere to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlinewhere to buy abortion pills online link pill for abortion online

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DaveTRON
User

Posts: 5,305
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Wednesday, December, 08, 2004 1:32 AM
Doug,

This is a fan site, nobody is claiming anything else.

I am part of the site staff here and if I don't like something you do, I have every right to call you on it. Based on the things you write and your actions here, I think you are trolling, or at least enjoy causing trouble.

If you are not, great, but frankly since day 1 on this site you've been rather annoying. I am not the only one to notice.

Everyone else here is able to debate and argue a point without causing undue friction. You act like nothing I have said to you makes any sense to you and that only your POV is correct. I haven't been the least bit vague, everyone else seems to understand my points, why not you?

You keep stating in your notes that there is no backup for what I say, yet every point I have made is backed up by the movie itself. Your continued protests for more facts from me make you look 'trollish' because everyone here who is a fan knows what I am saying is true because we all watch the movie a lot. We don't understand your POV, perhaps you need to provide more facts supporting your views? perhaps you could also be open to hearing ours. You haven't displayed any ability to do that.

This site is the biggest fan site for TRON. Steven Lisberger is a personal friend of mine, so is Cindy Morgan. I worked on the TRON 2.0 games. I don't claim my opinion is the only one, and I love to hear alternate viewpoints, but in your case I will make an exception.

Behave yourself and play nice on this site, and we won't have any problems. Step out of line, and the other site staff and I will take action to remove your posts.

I will continue to discuss TRON with my fellow TRON fans on this site, and from this point forward I will most likely ignore you.where to buy abortion pills online order abortion pill buy abortion pills onlinei need to buy the abortion pill read here order abortion pillpill for abortion online read order abortion pill

DaveTRON

 
Daniel Goldhagen 03
User

Posts: 0
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Wednesday, December, 08, 2004 9:06 AM
My name is Mr. Daniel Goldhagen. I have been visiting this site on and off for little over a year now. I never thought to post because it was not necessary to. Not until I have read Mr. Doug Jacoby’s commentary of possible interpretations of what Tron might be.
Keep in mind that the movie Tron is probably older than some people in here.

I’m a retired drama teacher and agent. I live in Israel and have resided for many years in the United States of America. I travel back and forth when ever I can to visit former actors, actresses and friends. I met my third wife while watching Tron. I have two wonderful sons living in the U.S.A.

I have met Mr. Gene Rodenberry many times. I have home films and pictures to prove this. In fact I had dinner with him once. I have always been a die hard fan of the original Star Trek TV. Series. I’m a “Trekker” if you will. Since 1967 what attracted me to the original Star Trek show was its futuristic technology. In particular, the Transporter beam, manned by Montgomery Scott. Upon first viewing Tron in the theatres I noticed that Tron’s story is really based around a “teleportation laser beam”. Very similar to the Star Ship Enterprise’s Transporter beam. Many of the questions that I read in this site about “digitizing” and its possibilities are explained in the original Star Trek series. The original Star Trek in several episodes had mention of computer cities. Star Trek tells of how the Transporter has the rematerializing of atoms and molecules back and forth to precisely correct positions. The thing is with the original Star Trek you get to eat the entire “cake” while with Tron you only get a slice of “pie” in my personal judgment.

It seems that Mr. Doug Jacoby is trying to find subplots and themes to the original Tron script. This is very common in any dramatic work of art. Mr. Doug Jacoby is not making up anything but is trying to interpret, explain and theorize. Mr. Jacoby is not alone for I too have seen some things similar to what his theorized interpretations are.

It’s possible that the ENCOM 511 mega computer has a function to conduct artificial intelligence programming on it. Before any of you smile let me ask you questions. When was the last time your computer program spoke to you? In Tron Clu speaks to Flynn. The MCP speaks to Dillinger. In fact the MCP decides things on its own. Dillinger cannot control the MCP’s effort to penetrate into the American Pentagon. Thus, the MCP and Clu, have their own mind and will. Flynn hacks into ENCOM and once inside his Clu program’s artificial intelligence is active. Therefore I accept Doug’s theory that Clu must have been originally written at ENCOM.

Artificial intelligence is not uniform in the ENCOM 511 mega computer’s 3-D virtual-reality simulator environmental accelerator. When Flynn’s recognizer crash lands to a particular section of the ENCOM 511 simulated city the programs do not help him! If it was uniform they would have. This leads me to believe that certain employees for ENCOM had group level access to create their own conscripts to have artificial intelligence. This being Flynn, Alan, Lora and Dillinger. When Tron met Yori she is very “mechanical” like. Almost like a “robot”. Just like the programs that did not help Flynn when he crashed his recognizer ship there. This would mean that Lora at that point let her Yori program run without artificial intelligence until Tron and Flynn interfered in the digital world. When Sark speaks to the troops he explains that their identity discs record everything programs say and do. Saying and doing are primitive counterparts to consciousness and self thinking.

It’s acceptable to think then that personalities can be tinkered with once a human enters into this simulated civilization made possible by ENCOM 511. Dillinger must have had demented thoughts to control the human race by enslaving people into a 3-D orwhere to buy abortion pill http://blog.bitimpulse.com/template/default.aspx?abortion-types buy abortion pill onlinewhere to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlinei need to buy the abortion pill read here order abortion pill


 
Sketch
Sector Admin

Posts: 2,938
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Wednesday, December, 08, 2004 9:58 AM
Welcome to the Sector Daniel.

Course Tron wasn't the first movie to use computer graphics. "Some of the first computer-generated images in moderm films were those included in Michael Crichton's science fiction story Westworld (1973)" (Omni's Screen Flights Screen Fantasies, Mathemagicians: Computer Moviemakesr of the 1980s and Beyond, 269) Triple I produced the imagery for that film. Now... "Though Tron was recived poorly by critics, it represented the first major attemp at integrating computer techniques into a Hollywood film on a major scale. I also served to pull togehter creative personnel in the field of computer graphics" (Omni's Screen Flights Screen Fantasies, Mathemagicians: Computer Moviemakesr of the 1980s and Beyond, 270).

It is interesting to compare the ENCOM laster to a Star Trek teleporter. I see you point about the similarities, however, we must keep in mind the main reason the laser is in Tron to begin with. The laser serves the primary story purpose of allowing the audince and the character Flynn to go into the computer world. Again though I do see you point of comparing the two for the similarity. Very neat.where to buy abortion pills online http://www.extrageek.com/template/default.aspx?an-abortion-pill buy abortion pills onlinei need to buy the abortion pill abortion pill order abortion pillonline purchase abortion pill abortion pill abortion pill online purchase

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KiaPurity
User

Posts: 3,482
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Wednesday, December, 08, 2004 12:23 PM
Yes, I'm bothered by Doug constantly saying that there's no evidence even though it's in the movie.

It is pretty much a troll-like action to say "You're wrong." Those three words (two, if you like!) can easily upset people.

I'd suggest you choose your words carefully, Doug. >>

Anyway! Yes, the programs are pretty much, well, robotic. The emotions didn't start to show up till after Flynn was in the system.

I really didn't know about the slip. o_O Of course, I might have not been paying attention. Was this vocial emotion or the action? (As most everyone would know, I can't really figure out the voices because har har, I can't hear them. x___x)abortion pills online http://www.kvicksundscupen.se/template/default.aspx?abortion-questions cytotec abortionwhere to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlineabortion pills abortion pill abortion pills online

Kia: Cool. I'm a infamous mythological perfect User.

 
MutoidMan
User

Posts: 2,231
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Wednesday, December, 08, 2004 1:45 PM
KiaPurity Wrote:Anyway! Yes, the programs are pretty much, well, robotic. The emotions didn't start to show up till after Flynn was in the system.

I don't know, I always thought the programs showed emotions. I can think of three instances that seem to me like there are programs showing some emotion before Flynn entered the system.

1. In the lightcycle race between Sark and the unnamed program, the unnamed program looked pretty unnerved during the race.

2. When Clu's tank was about to crash, he has a scared look on his face and he screams.

3. I think both the exchange between Crom and the Guards and the exchange between Crom and Ram show a lot of emotion.

None of the characters other than Clu were played with a monotone "computer" voice.

I think maybe the initial idea may have been to play the programs that way, but for some reason it was dropped in favor of speaking naturally.

Like DaveTRON said, TRON was played with a militant personality, but I say he had passion. He didn't walk around like the Terminator with absolutely single-minded soulless determination. He cared about his fellow programs, or at least he seemed to care.on line abortion pill misoprostol dose abortion medical abortion pill onlinewhere to buy abortion pills online http://www.extrageek.com/template/default.aspx?an-abortion-pill buy abortion pills onlinei need to buy the abortion pill read here order abortion pill

"We are, after all, not God." - Cmdr. J. J. Adams
"C is for cookie. That's good enough for me." - Cookie Monster
"If money is the root of all evil, I'd like to be a bad, bad man." - Huey Lewis & the News

Most recent PC game collection update:
04/12/2012. Check it out!
 
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