Doug,

While I enjoy a healthy debate, I am not enjoying debating with you because you refuse to accept facts right in front of your face.

I have all of the original scripts for TRON, I've read every one of them. Steven Lisberger and I have discussed a lot of these points and I know pretty well what was intended in these scenes.

You have a view of the film that I have never heard from anyone else. That's your perogative, but your method of dealing with our POVs sucks. The facts we need are right there in the film. A film you misquote and obviously haven't watched nearly as much as some of the rest of us.

It ceases to be a debate when one side starts telling everyone else they are wrong. You have some good and interesting alternate viewpoints, but if you aren't willing to see ours, I am no longer going to discuss it with you.

Watch the movie man.

Doug Jacoby Wrote:The movie Tron is best enjoyed when you are young to have fun and experience amazing action scenes. Unfortunately the movie Tron does not seem to work out side of this as far as expanded universes or have plausible scientific explanations. Even under the genre of Fantasy.

Ah, but I beg to differ. From the artistic standpoint, Tron offers some very deep artistic interpritations of representing a computer world and it's inner workings. Would talk more about them, but right now I must get to class.

I'm not sure Dave. A debate is better suited in forum posts I think.

This debate is in too many fragments right now. I can't decide what to answer first.

Dave,
I hate to speak third person about someone who can read this, however I believe that Doug is not a troll, or rather he came here not intending to be one.
However, this could be the infancy (or rather, birth) of a troll- and I would forewarn Doug that such behavior that he has been exhibiting is either the infancy of troll-ness, which I would warn to avoid,
-Or,
This could be the situation of a sophisticated Troll... Which I have never heard of before.

Doug,
My advice would be this- Before you debate with other members, Watch Tron again. you will see what we're talking about more clearly. And I mean actually sit down and take the whole movie in, not read about it on a film site or something similar. Also, please try to consider other people's points, not just your own. Being willing to listen to and accept other people's ideas is especially integral in a debate like this, wherein you are clearly unfamiliar with the scource material. (which, in this case, is "Tron")

This thread went from very interesting cool theoretical discussion, to shared and varied opinions, to some "I really like TRON, but I don't like this about it and I hate that about it, and this is too vague so I'll fill in my own blanks like this and there can be no other plausible interpretations... but I really like TRON" and then some excellent rebuttals, and then more unfortunate "you've failed, and I'm right, and TRON has too many unexplained problem areas that I must fill in like I do, but I really like it"...

I'm sorry. I kind of find it amusing.

I LOVE TRON so much, and the personification of programs as people and their ties to their Users, and the whole concept of what TRON is - both it's universe (or rules if you will) and fantastic story.

Are you a troll Doug Jacoby? Are you here to stir up trouble? If so, you're just wasting your time. The members here will grow bored of you very quickly if you exhibit troll-like behavior. If you're not a troll, take it easy, man! TRON is just a movie - meant to be fun and inspiring (in my opinion). Sure - it's an awesome philosophy as well, with a fantastic premise and story, and amazing visuals (for the time, and even today). But it's just a work of entertainment. It was never meant to be a 100% solid explanation for what goes on inside the digital world and how programs might "feel" and spell out every exact detail of what a digitized User can do inside the digital world. It's a story and a fantastic journey for you to take each time you watch it. I'm with DaveTRON in the whole "I don't want TRON to spell it all out" end. I enjoy the film for what it is, the philosophy behind it, and the cool visuals, and the great fun it is.

I really wanted to jump in to this discussion before it got to the "no - you are wrong and you fail to illustrate your point" crap. Once that happened, I had no desire to share how I see TRON. Of course, DaveTRON really nailed much of what I would have said anyway... and he added a lot of great things I would not have thought of.

DaveTRON Wrote:I am asking my fellow TRON Sector members what they think. Am I reading this guy all wrong, or do you guys see a TROLL in disguise here? I personally smell troll.

I don't know.

I'm thinking Doug Jacoby is a TRON fan who may be a little confused about what he likes and dislikes about the film and how he has interpreted certain elements. I think he brings up interesting points, thought some of them seem off and inaccurate. Everyone is allowed their opinions.

Again, I'm not sure we have a troll here. I'm more inclined right now to think he's been met here with responses he didn't expect and doesn't agree with. Perhaps he feels put on the defensive.

One thing is for sure. We all get along rather well here and show great respect for each member here. Those who have difficulty getting along don't last too long and are not missed when they leave.

Doug - if you really dig TRON and like what The Sector has to offer, just take it easy and be cool. We're all friends here

Good points, Mutoid. One thing though. I may be remembering wrong, but did any of the digitizing team ever mention its ability to turn objects into computer data? They may not have known about it. Also, I don't remember them ever saying precisely who came up with the principles behind digitization.

Here's my theory (and its quite possible that I'm completely wrong on this, but bear with me): After the MCP gained sentience and a direct connection with the world of the users, he was curious about the physical universe, as you'd expect him to. He tries to learn as much as he can, especially about the things a calculation program like him can understand best, the laws of physics. After learning them what we already know, he decides to learn more about them himself. Armed with an ability to complex calculations without any chance of error, his knowledge of the laws of physics increases to a point which would take us decades, maybe even centuries to find out. One thing he learns is of particular interest to him, that if you had a laser at exactly the right wavelength you can turn matter into a small amount of electricity which can be imported into a computer and converted to binary code. You would also be able to do the same thing in reverse, turning binary code into matter (this would be much harder than converting matter into binary code, but it would be possible). Realizing the potential of this, he tells his findings to Dillinger, who sets up a research team who will make the equipment necessary for digitization. They didn't want to let the research know what the true purpose of the project, fearing a leak (after all, if digitizing were found to be possible it'd force us to rewrite most of our knowledge of the laws of physics), so they tell them the most plausible explanation: that they're working on what is essentially a teleportation device. The rest is history.

MutoidMan Wrote:One thing I saw I wanted to comment on... Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I saw there was never any inkling in TRON that it was possible to "dedigitize" something that was never digitized in the first place. There was also never any hint that one could make copies of something that had been digitized.

No matter whether my theory is wrong or right, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to copy something that's digitized, after all, it is computer data. Whether you're able to dedigitize it is another matter.

Another thing, if the digitized person's molecules were kept suspended in a laser, they would have to be dedigitized out of the same laser they were digitized in, but Jet was dedigitized out of a different laser, at a different site, no less. Unless the fCon team moved the molecules, but why would they do that?

I watched Tron again tonight, and there is not even a suggestion that digitizing could turn a physical object into computer data beyond the name until Flynn is digitized. They talk about how they're turning "something into nothing" right before the orange test and Walter explains to Alan what exactly it does. Walter's explanation does tell us how it could transport things, but he never says anything about how it could turn physical objects into binary code. He doesn't mention any dedigitization programs being created either.

MutoidMan Wrote:I'm not sure that you can copy the dedigitization program, which is what I think the user in a system basically is. If it was possible, travel into and out of the electronic world would be a whole lot safer, since you could always be restored to the state in which you digitized into the system if anything went wrong. Data Wraiths automatically dedigitize rather than let their programs deteriorate to the point that they derez (I think.) If their programs could be copied, they could derez without dedigitizing and simply rerez and keep fighting. That does bring up an interesting thought though. What if your dedigitization program could be copied? What if you dedigitized, but your copy was not erased. Would it be free to roam about the system? Would it resent you for not being able to escape into the real world? Would erasing it be tantamount to murder? Or suicide? What if you digitized and it dedigitized, leaving you stranded? Would it be you? Creepy stuff! Better off you can't be copied, I think.

If it's made out of binary code, it can be copied, plain and simple, its not disputable. Maybe there is some copy protection added to objects when they're digitized, but that can be deactivated if you're a good enough programmer, and the digitization can be set to not add the copy protection. Maybe Fcon was worried about the issues you brought up in the second paragraph, after all, what are you supposed to do with the copies, just tell them "Wait here until your original needs a replacement." I also imagine it would make them at least a little unwilling to fight if they knew they were copies of someone, at the very least it would hurt morale. I disagree about digitization being safer if you could copy yourself. If something did go wrong, you would still die, but someone else who was an exact copy of you would replace you.

Conduit Wrote:I watched Tron again tonight, and there is not even a suggestion that digitizing could turn a physical object into computer data beyond the name until Flynn is digitized. They talk about how they're turning "something into nothing" right before the orange test and Walter explains to Alan what exactly it does. Walter's explanation does tell us how it could transport things, but he never says anything about how it could turn physical objects into binary code. He doesn't mention any dedigitization programs being created either.

O.K., so I watched TRON again today too.

Walter says that "A laser dismantles the molecular structure of the object, and molecules remain suspended in the laser beam. Then, when the computer plays out the model, the molecules fall back into place, and voilá!"

So either this "model" is a database of some sort created from data generated by the laser when it initially reads an object's structure that a standard dedigitization program reads in order to correctly reassemble the suspended molecules, or it is a special custom program within which that same data generated by the laser is hard-coded (hence I call it a dedigitization program.)

Either way, it is a digital representation of an object's physical being, not the physical being itself. Therefore, we can safely assume that a person's consciousness does not reside in the laser with their molecules. Instead, it somehow goes with the digital representation.

Conduit Wrote:If it's made out of binary code, it can be copied, plain and simple, its not disputable. Maybe there is some copy protection added to objects when they're digitized, but that can be deactivated if you're a good enough programmer, and the digitization can be set to not add the copy protection. Maybe Fcon was worried about the issues you brought up in the second paragraph, after all, what are you supposed to do with the copies, just tell them "Wait here until your original needs a replacement." I also imagine it would make them at least a little unwilling to fight if they knew they were copies of someone, at the very least it would hurt morale. I disagree about digitization being safer if you could copy yourself. If something did go wrong, you would still die, but someone else who was an exact copy of you would replace you.

True, any digital data that we're familiar with can be copied.

But, I don't recall there being any mention of the possibility of anyone making any copies of a person's "model" or dedigitization program in either TRON or TRON 2.0. So until some mention of that possibility is made in either in a TRON sequel or TRON 2.0 sequel, I won't assume it's a given.

If copying is possible...

I don't think a person would necessarily die if the original version of their digital representation is derezed. The act of copying the representation may link their conciousness with the copy, allowing them to contine to exist within the system as long as a copy of their digital representation is intact.

My name is Mr. Daniel Goldhagen. I have been visiting this site on and off for little over a year now. I never thought to post because it was not necessary to. Not until I have read Mr. Doug Jacoby’s commentary of possible interpretations of what Tron might be.
Keep in mind that the movie Tron is probably older than some people in here.

I’m a retired drama teacher and agent. I live in Israel and have resided for many years in the United States of America. I travel back and forth when ever I can to visit former actors, actresses and friends. I met my third wife while watching Tron. I have two wonderful sons living in the U.S.A.

I have met Mr. Gene Rodenberry many times. I have home films and pictures to prove this. In fact I had dinner with him once. I have always been a die hard fan of the original Star Trek TV. Series. I’m a “Trekker” if you will. Since 1967 what attracted me to the original Star Trek show was its futuristic technology. In particular, the Transporter beam, manned by Montgomery Scott. Upon first viewing Tron in the theatres I noticed that Tron’s story is really based around a “teleportation laser beam”. Very similar to the Star Ship Enterprise’s Transporter beam. Many of the questions that I read in this site about “digitizing” and its possibilities are explained in the original Star Trek series. The original Star Trek in several episodes had mention of computer cities. Star Trek tells of how the Transporter has the rematerializing of atoms and molecules back and forth to precisely correct positions. The thing is with the original Star Trek you get to eat the entire “cake” while with Tron you only get a slice of “pie” in my personal judgment.

It seems that Mr. Doug Jacoby is trying to find subplots and themes to the original Tron script. This is very common in any dramatic work of art. Mr. Doug Jacoby is not making up anything but is trying to interpret, explain and theorize. Mr. Jacoby is not alone for I too have seen some things similar to what his theorized interpretations are.

It’s possible that the ENCOM 511 mega computer has a function to conduct artificial intelligence programming on it. Before any of you smile let me ask you questions. When was the last time your computer program spoke to you? In Tron Clu speaks to Flynn. The MCP speaks to Dillinger. In fact the MCP decides things on its own. Dillinger cannot control the MCP’s effort to penetrate into the American Pentagon. Thus, the MCP and Clu, have their own mind and will. Flynn hacks into ENCOM and once inside his Clu program’s artificial intelligence is active. Therefore I accept Doug’s theory that Clu must have been originally written at ENCOM.

Artificial intelligence is not uniform in the ENCOM 511 mega computer’s 3-D virtual-reality simulator environmental accelerator. When Flynn’s recognizer crash lands to a particular section of the ENCOM 511 simulated city the programs do not help him! If it was uniform they would have. This leads me to believe that certain employees for ENCOM had group level access to create their own conscripts to have artificial intelligence. This being Flynn, Alan, Lora and Dillinger. When Tron met Yori she is very “mechanical” like. Almost like a “robot”. Just like the programs that did not help Flynn when he crashed his recognizer ship there. This would mean that Lora at that point let her Yori program run without artificial intelligence until Tron and Flynn interfered in the digital world. When Sark speaks to the troops he explains that their identity discs record everything programs say and do. Saying and doing are primitive counterparts to consciousness and self thinking.

It’s acceptable to think then that personalities can be tinkered with once a human enters into this simulated civilization made possible by ENCOM 511. Dillinger must have had demented thoughts to control the human race by enslaving people into a 3-D or

Yes, I'm bothered by Doug constantly saying that there's no evidence even though it's in the movie.

It is pretty much a troll-like action to say "You're wrong." Those three words (two, if you like!) can easily upset people.

I'd suggest you choose your words carefully, Doug. >>

Anyway! Yes, the programs are pretty much, well, robotic. The emotions didn't start to show up till after Flynn was in the system.

I really didn't know about the slip. o_O Of course, I might have not been paying attention. Was this vocial emotion or the action? (As most everyone would know, I can't really figure out the voices because har har, I can't hear them. x___x)