wwwmwww Wrote:Lines are very hard to render properly even with anti-aliasing. Atleast in POV-Ray...

I know lines can sometimes be problematic to render, but I always thought it was more a property of the method in wich the line is drawn and the resolution. I think back to my old days of computer imaging - back in the early 80's. I used to have to plot out images on graph paper, and then program them in as hi-rez graphic commands on an Apple ][ computer at school. Depending on the color of the line and how steep the vertical angle was, a line would not always display as a solid line, but sometimes as a series of broken lines from point A to point B. The way around this was to plot a thicker line, two pixels wide instead of one. Of course, the Apple ][ computers of that era had a very limited graphics display of only 280 by 192 and only 8 colors to choose from (in high rez mode.

I am guessing that the same technique might apply in POV-Ray and in the TRON sequence - either increasing the resolution (which should increase thickness of the line respectively) or simply increasing the thickness of the line, period. With a thicker line, the non-showing areas should be minimized if not done eliminated. Of course, many more factors can play a part in this when taking in to account that the lines may not be lines, but simple intersect points between solids. That amounts to a lot more potential reasons lines may not display properly. But not being much of a 3D artist myself, I probably can't get deep in to a discussion about that.

TheReelTodd Wrote: I know lines can sometimes be problematic to render, but I always thought it was more a property of the method in wich the line is drawn and the resolution.

3D renders are created in a process similiar to a camera. In a camera light comes from a light source, hits an object, and travels into the lens of a camera. The object then is seen on the film. In POV-Ray and as I understand it most 3D software the process works the other way around. A ray starts at the camera, moves out to the object, and then from the object to the various light sources. To determine the color of a pixel one ray is sent out per pixel to see what object it hits. With AA several rays are sent out per pixel and they are averaged. If you are truely trying to render a line, and by definition a line has no width, it will never be seen even with very high AA. Some rendering software adds in lines later and that is how the red lines on the tank were added. In addition to sending out rays an edge detection routine was also running that POV-Ray doesn't have. These edges were turned into lines and added in a way I can't do in POV-Ray. On my tank I had to model the lines seperately and I used cylinders so they would have some width.

Look at a recognizer. When its close to the camer you can hardly see the red out line. When its far from the camera the red outline looks huge. That's because its not a modeled object. A line of a fixed width is added in after the rendering process. I can't (atleast not easily) do that in POV-Ray. My lines are modeled and will be big when close to the camera and smaller as they get farther away from the camera.
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wwwmwww Wrote:3D renders are created in a process similiar to a camera...

Interesting points you bring up on the lines.

It seems like so much extra work has to be done to force the lines in to view. Of course, back in the day I drew images with lines - basic paths from point X1,Y1 to X2,Y2 - no light source or anything. Those lines were just that: lines. It makes perfect sense that POV-Ray doesn't interpret lines as "lines" since it is trying to render simulated reality, which as you stated, really doesn't have lines - just objects that appear to be lines (like the cylinders you used in your tank).

There is a dirty little trick in the very basic 3D animations I've played with to get lines - beautiful, glowing, TRON-like lines. I was wondering if you could do something similar. Of course, I'm using a low-end 3D text generating application, but I imagine you might be able to employ the same trick.

By rendering the same animation twice - once as a wire frame and once as a fully rendered (filled in, etc.) animation, the wire frame can be imposed over the complete animation and provide lines. Once you have lines, you can do anything you want with them - make them different colors, etc. It's a neat trick. In an on-going project I'm working on, I used the wire frame trick for some 80's looking visuals in what I've dubbed the power-disco ball. It's just a basic wire frame sphere spinning, with pulsating energy bursts, but kind of cool and 80's looking... and very easy to animate. Of course, that's a very simple use of that trick. I'm not sure if you'd be able to render a wire frame of your tank over the actual tank (obvious portions removed from the wire frame where lines are not supposed to show). Just an idea though.

I really wish I got more in to 3D modeling and animation myself. Funny thing - TRON made me really want to get in to this stuff as a kid. But I didn't have access to any tools that would allow true 3D animation growing up. Now I only dabble in very basic 3D elements. Oh well. I tend to concentrate more on image manipulation and traditional forms of animation these days (traditional but via video cam and a computer instead of film). I'm still VERY fascinated with 3D computer rendering and animation though. And it all started with a little TV show back in 1981 called "Computers are People Too" - which is also where I FIRST learned of an in-production, groundbreaking film called... TRON!

Little trip down memory lane there

TheReelTodd Wrote: I'm not sure if you'd be able to render a wire frame of your tank over the actual tank (obvious portions removed from the wire frame where lines are not supposed to show). Just an idea though.

Short answer... No. My Tank isn't a mesh. Its a CSG, POV-Ray's term for Constructive Solid Geometry. It's made up of boxes, spheres, cylinders, tori, etc. It's made just as MAGI made the tank, light cycle, and recognizer originally. In short there is no wire frame as there is no mesh.

Triple-I made Sark's Carrier, Sark's Pod, the MPC, and the Solar Sailer and they did use meshes as can be seen here:

http://www.tron-sector.com/gallery/show.aspx?ID=927
POV-Ray isn't really the tool you'd want to use to make a mesh. It can make simple ones, and it can be used to render meshes, but if you wanted to make the Solar Sailer from scratch you'd want to look into some other software.

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Trace Wrote:OMUser...you're all smart. ...but look what I can do! *twirls disks on sticks*

Hey - nice trick, Trace!

** thinks to self **

If she's twirling her discs on sticks... she's NOT aiming them at anyone... hmm, cool!

Trace Wrote:OMUser...you're all smart. ...but look what I can do! *twirls disks on sticks*

Thanks Trace... we are all smart aren't we? We know enough to like TRON.

Carl

I actually got started on the modeling today. Here is all I got done. I think I need to write a few macros that will make this faster going.

Enjoy,
Carl

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I've had zero free time lately but I took a hour or so this weekend to write the macros I needed and do a little more modeling.


Note, even the zero isn't the same as Syd Mead's original zero.

http://www.tron-sector.com/gallery/show.aspx?ID=1320
So it isn't quite correct to call this the movie font.

http://www.tron-sector.com/gallery/show.aspx?ID=1574
The more I think about it the more I'm leaning toward using Syd's original font.

Enjoy,
Carl

Really amazing work, www!

That looks great, Carl!