Pretty cool. I always liked the division symbol. I thought it was kinda quirky.

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Taking a quick look back at the east wall for a second I wanted to point something out.


Notice the red circle. It looks like I modeled that piece wrong as it's different then the 3 other walls. However I'll argue it shouldn't be different. Look at this pic:


Here you see the east wall and that part looks like all the others. As I pointed out earlier in this thread it's not the only problem with the east wall. It changes again after the crack is formed next to the 3.

Oh and one other thing that looks odd in that screen capture. Where do the trails for the orange and blue bike on the left go? It looks like they've just started leaving a trail which we know shouldn't be the case.

Interesting...

Enjoy,
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wwwmwww Wrote:Taking a quick look back at the east wall for a second I wanted to point something out. Notice the red circle. It looks like I modeled that piece wrong as it's different then the 3 other walls. However I'll argue it shouldn't be different.

I agree with that. I think you've got a better grip on the game grid wall continuity than they did at the time. They probably did just place the light cycles on the grid generically for each shot, not making much notice of the walls and directions, as you had stated before I believe.

wwwmwww Wrote:Oh and one other thing that looks odd in that screen capture. Where do the trails for the orange and blue bike on the left go? It looks like they've just started leaving a trail which we know shouldn't be the case. Interesting...

Wow - great find! So many times I've seen the light cycle competition and I don't ever recall noticing that error. It does indeed appear as if the light cycle jet walls are just starting out right behind them. I'm sure it was a bit harder to keep track of everything like that given the primitive tools they had to work with. They probably had to play the "it's only a few frames - no one will notice it" card here and there. Heck, I play that card all the time in my work!

Wow - your light cycle game grid recreation is pretty dead on, Carl!

You've even got the grid squares properly proportioned - very nice!

Looking at the dimensions of your wall detailings, they look pretty damn close to the film version. Aside from the fact that you've lit your game grid walls a little more (making them look brighter), that's one VERY accurate recreation!

Slight difference in thickness of your detailing lines and the film's - yours appear to be slightly thicker. And your grid squares are slightly thinner looking. It is looking sweet though!

For what its worth, I like the game grid floor better without the reflection - it's more TRON-like that way.

I know you're still working on the walls, but I just can't wait to see your animations of light cycles INSIDE your newly modeled game grid arena!
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wwwmwww Wrote: TheReelTodd Wrote:You've even got the grid squares properly proportioned - very nice! Not really... you'll see what I mean soon.

Hmm. Ok, they looked pretty close. I counted the number of squares between the indentation on the left side to be 10 squares in the TRON film frame and in your rendering. The alignment of the squares (on each end) also seem to be in sync. Is your comment a case of your squares not being exactly to very close to the film grid squares, or is it a case of the film squares kind of change size in different shots?

wwwmwww Wrote:I've noticed in the close up shots the walls look almost black. In the distance shots they look blue.

Yeah - I think the walls in the film are blue, but they're generally not well lit and appear very dark at times. Like I said, I think you just lit your walls with brighter light source for lack of a better way of putting it.

wwwmwww Wrote:In TRON I think they used a procedure like we talked about before to add the lines in after the rendering. In my model the lines will get thinner and thinner the farther way the camera is moved. So they look real big close up yet you can still see them when you are in the middle of the game grid. In TRON they seem to always be the same width regardless of the distance to the camera. It's like the red lines on the recognizers. The grid lines do look narrow from this distance but they look correct to me up close. Again I think the width of the lines isn't being adjusted for correctly in TRON. Notice that when the camera is close to the grid in the movie, the horizon looks like its becoming solid white instead of black yet 95% of the grid is black and only about 5% is white. The horizon should tend toward black... not white.

That's a good point - I think you hit the nail on the head with that. In the film, the lines are generally always a constant weight regardless of how far or close to the camera. And I know exactly what you mean about the grid lines looking all filled in in the background - I had noticed that too. I figure they did that so the grid lines would not look odd when they became smaller than the size of a pixel. It would have caused a very erratic-looking pattern-in-motion had they not done it the way they did, if that makes any sense. I'm sure POV-Ray will handle it better than the technology they had to use at the time.

wwwmwww Wrote:Still have one wall to model. Then I'll make a few fly-by animations to see how she looks then I'll start putting the bikes in.

I'm really looking forward to the animations once you've gotten the "problem" area worked out. This is going to be really cool!

Keep up the good work!

So they DID scale the grid differently per shot, eh? Hmm. I wonder if they just scaled down the grid for the longer shots (without cycles) because it looked like the grid squares were too small when shown from the more distant, encompassing angles, and then used the "regular" scale for the close-ups and action shots?

Hard to say why it was done that way. Perhaps it was a simple continuity error and not intentional or even known about at the time. I'm sure they rendered the light cycle scenes out of order and learned a lot along the way and that probably affected how they proceeded with the rest of the shots (as they learned).

I guess the best way to figure out which scale to use in your game grid arena would be experimentation.

wwwmwww Wrote:My grid size is already 520x520. If a light cycle covers 1 unit per frame of film and I use a frame rate of 24 fps it takes 21.66 seconds for a light cycle to just travel from one side of the grid to the other. If I show a match in real time it sounds like there could be some very slow moments.

At the wide shot (larger squares) scale, you shouldn't think of the distance as 21.66 seconds, but more like 10.83 seconds as the opponents will be traveling toward each other. 11 seconds isn't a bad time because it will give you an opportunity to get in a few angles of the cycles heading toward each other, each ready to spar-off in a battle to the deresolution.

Even at the smaller grid size, you'd probably be able to fill in the time with dialogue or other cool shots of the cycles heading toward each other.

In multi-player internet light cycles, there is almost always some moments in the game as the cyclists go head to head, perform a lot of fancy moves trying to out maneuver each other, and ultimately have to circle back (or should I say square back) and come around in a different location as there is now too many jet walls in the way to continue in the previous location. This actually happens several times during a duel between two of the more skilled cyclists.

Of course, an animation (unlike a live game) would be better planned for optimal drama and excitement content to minimize the slow moments. Also, don't forget that if you have multiple cycles dueling at once, you can always stage it so that there are always intense moments between two cyclists while the other cycles move in to position for their more intense moments, etc. You know - that sounds like a lot of work and some really serious timing & planning. But it will be VERY cool and well worth the effort once completed!

Honestly, I'm sure you could make either grid size work well. I guess it's up to how you think it looks when you do some test animations.

wwwmwww Wrote:Then again who is to say the recognizer size is consistent in the film. The size relationship between the light cycles and the tank isn't.

I think the recognizer was pretty consistently sized in the film... but then again, we generally only saw them near the light cycles and a tank - and it's already been established that the cycles and tanks were not always proportioned the same. I guess it's a matter of doing your research and checking for exactly what size the recognizer seems to best resemble hot large it appeared in the film.

In the film, the recognizer did seem pretty small in comparison to the light cycle arena walls, and very large compared to the light cycle - in the same sequence. Yeah - you'll have to work this one out. I'm looking forward to the test renderings! I know, it may be a while, but I'm in no rush - it's all fun!

TheReelTodd Wrote:So they DID scale the grid differently per shot, eh? Hmm. I wonder if they just scaled down the grid for the longer shots (without cycles) because it looked like the grid squares were too small when shown from the more distant, encompassing angles, and then used the "regular" scale for the close-ups and action shots?

It's hard to say. Based on the story boards my guess would be that they released they needed taller walls for the recognizer to come down from and have time for its legs to turn around and come together. So they just enlarged the walls without going back and redoing the beginning.

TheReelTodd Wrote:Hard to say why it was done that way. Perhaps it was a simple continuity error and not intentional or even known about at the time. I'm sure they rendered the light cycle scenes out of order and learned a lot along the way and that probably affected how they proceeded with the rest of the shots (as they learned).

I'm not sure why but this has me wondering... Are the light cycles themselves always the same size relative to the grid spacing? ...atleast while on the game grid? I'm not sure. As for why they did it this way... again my guess is they had a number of models... be that the tank, the light cycle, the arena, etc. And probably for each shot they wanted to match the story boards as best they could. Someone would probably say "This shot would look better if the tank was a little bigger or the light cycles were a little smaller." and I just get the feeling that relative size consistency wasn't that important to them. Each shot was probably tuned without too much regard to the others. It's nothing against them... errors like this would probably never been discovered had someone else not tried to copy their models. And I'm sure that was the last thing they were thinking about back then.

TheReelTodd Wrote:I guess the best way to figure out which scale to use in your game grid arena would be experimentation.

Yes, it's always something that's trivial enough to change after I've start playing with it. However once I start making little shorts I'd like to nail all the sizes down... atleast so I'm consistent within each short/animation.

TheReelTodd Wrote:I think the recognizer was pretty consistently sized in the film... but then again, we generally only saw them near the light cycles and a tank - and it's already been established that the cycles and tanks were not always proportioned the same. I guess it's a matter of doing your research and checking for exactly what size the recognizer seems to best resemble hot large it appeared in the film.

I think once I get to that point of starting that model I'll work from the shot where the recognizer cuts through the bridge that has a tank on it. I'll use that to adjust it's size relative to the tank and from there see how it looks next to the light cycles and the wall of the arena. Anyone got any good screen captures of the recognizer cutting through that bridge? Maybe it's best to ask that question in my recognizer thread once I get to that point. I don't want to get that cart too far ahead of the horse.

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Well, you've got some work ahead of you, Carl.

I'm looking forward to the comparison/text renderings I'm sure will be coming when you have the time.

Interesting how a seemingly simple thing such as recreating the light cycles, game grid, and other TRON vehicles has turned in to a major analysis of scale, size, and proportion thing like this. Amazing how none of us caught this when we saw the film over and over and over... until someone started trying to model the vehicles, etc. It just goes to show how the mind ties things together, even when they don't necessarily fit. This reminds me of the Millennium Falcon from Star Wars. The "full scale" version of it was really only about 60% or 70% of the size it should have been considering the close-ups of the cockpit and interior portions of the ship. And no one questioned that for the longest time either. Of course, that size difference was probably for the obvious reason of making the ship full scale would have taken up too much room on a sound stage, but still interesting.

Thing in the film TRON world may not exist in a constant scale, but things in the recreation will be... and they'll ROCK!
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Tori Wrote:Wow....those are neat.. They remind me of that Armegetron game in a way...

Well, I would think they would since Armegetron is based on the light cycles sequence in TRON.

Fun game (Armegetron) - I've played it. Not quite light cycles, it's a lot slower, but fun. on line abortion pill misoprostol dose abortion medical abortion pill onlineorder abortion pill abortion pill buy online where to buy abortion pill

Plus... besides Tron 2.0 it's the only online multiplayer light cycles game I know of.

right?