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wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Tuesday, July, 04, 2006 11:24 PM
matthew180 Wrote:Nice detective work! Well, if the front tire does not have a hub, then I'm down one primitive! :-) It just does not seem like it's just the cutting sphere surface though. There seems to be a hard edge between the wheel color and black. I suppose that could be shadow, but at times it appears to be symmetrical all the way around the wheel... Wouldn't it be nice to have a wireframe render of MAGI's geometry?!?! :-)

Well if you get right down to it CSGs don't have wireframes. Atleast they don't in POV-Ray and I doubt they did in what MAGI used either. Only meshs have wireframes. And yes there is a hard edge between the wheel color and black at the location of the front hub. In other words the cutting sphere surface isn't just black. The outer part is the wheel color. So yes you can get rid of one primitive but to do so you need to apply a color patern to the front wheel. Either that or you can turn the one primitive of the hub into three. Just keep the primitive you have and have it also cut by the two spheres that cut the front tire into shape.

matthew180 Wrote:I'll drop my hub and see what the renders look like. Now, what about the rear wheel?

Your rear wheel appears to be correct to me. Are the cutouts on the sides spheres, ellipsoids, or cones? In truth any of the 3 I think can be used and no one would be able to tell the difference. I used spheres since they render the fastest.

matthew180 Wrote:The ellipse used to make the wing on the DVD sure looked like it only went half way through, but your argument about keeping primitive count down is a good one. I suppose that lightcycle could have been work in progress as well.

It was certainly a work in progess. Look at this MAGI image.

http://www.tron-sector.com/gallery/show.aspx?ID=713
The rear tire looks to be a torus and its missining the side details (transmission and light jet).

As far as the wing from the DVD. Could you get a screen capture that you think shows it only going half way through? Its been a while since I've watched that sequence so I certainly could be over looking something.

matthew180 Wrote:I wonder is anyone on this board knows the guys who actually built the lightcycle model at MAGI?? Anyone?

I know how to get in touch with atleast one person that was working with MAGI at the time. So does DaveTRON. I'm not sure if the person I know is the one that actually made the model or if he supervised the modelers but I've asked the kind of questions you what answered before and never got very far. I think I know why. To these people modeling is their career. The person that modeled the light cycle has probably made a 1000+ models in his 20+ year career since then and they are very busy people. I doubt they remember exactly every little detail of the model and its not worth their time to go back and check. That is if they even could check. If the original model still exists its probably stored on some big tape reel somewhere and if the equipment is still available to read it it's probably only in a format readable by software that no one has used in 20 years. Even if you had the original modeler and asked them for the model of the light cycle, I'm sure they'd start from scratch and come up with something a little different from what was seen in the movie. I couldn't remake an excel file I made 2 years ago for a specific task today without it being atleast a little different. Here we are talking about 20+ years. Look at TRON 2.0, even Disney remade the light cycle from scratch and they own the original model.

matthew180 Wrote:I do see that line shaped shadow you are talking about, and I cannot tell what it is either. I'm firing up my DVD now to single-frame through the lightcycle scenes. :-) Also in your animated images, look at the area just under the w



 
wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Tuesday, July, 04, 2006 11:50 PM
Something else I just noticed...


Your rear wheel intersects your chassis. I don't think it should. I believe it only appears to from the bottom view of the MAGI model because of perspective. If you move the plane I have circled in red forward so that it clears the rear wheel and turn on perspective you'll see what I'm talking about as you move the camera closer to the light cycle.

Carl

P.S. Just moticed you can also move your rear wheel back just a bit. It should be centered in the same plane as the plane that defines the rear of the chassis. Again I think perspective is throwing you off just a bit. Look at this image:


The high point of the fender should be in the same plane as the center of the rear tire. The red line shows that it is. You can't use the front edge of the chassis as this point is closer to the camera and thus affected by perspective.


 
matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Wednesday, July, 05, 2006 2:48 PM
You're right, I didn't notice that about the rear wheel, thanks! I swear that perspective is going to get me every time. I'll get the wheel moved. I also found a screen shot that shows a bottom view of the lightcycle and it would definately fit inside the wheel-well without being cut.


I sat up for 3 hours last night single stepping through every scene with lightcycles in them and I found the images that show the lightcycles hovering above the game grid. The res-up footage shows this. You can't see it during the actual footage on the game grid because there is always a shadow, but I did find one frame that could support the hovering.


I also found new proof of the wings being one piece! The lightcycle explosions are our dream come true since they show the parts of the lightcycle! They also indicate that the fender is a pipe (hollow cylinder), not a cone as I thought. The main canopy is tapered which seems to cut the fender such that it looks like a cone.

Also, you can see the transmission geometry!! Off to the left just above the chassis. I'll have to study that for a while to figure out what it's made of. You can also see the rear wheel's hub and other parts.


Very cool information in those explosion images. There are two other explosion clips, but they are not as clear as this one was. I think I just got my geometry down by at least 3 primitives, if not 4!! My wing ellipse will become one, the fender cutter goes away and the fender becomes a cyliner (pipe), the transmission is obviously one piece as well, and probably the light jets too. I'll get to 57 if it kills me! :-)

Matthew



 
matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Wednesday, July, 05, 2006 2:57 PM
wwwmwww Wrote:
I know how to get in touch with atleast one person that was working with MAGI at the time. So does DaveTRON. I'm not sure if the person I know is the one that actually made the model or if he supervised the modelers but I've asked the kind of questions you what answered before and never got very far. I think I know why. To these people modeling is their career. The person that modeled the light cycle has probably made a 1000+ models in his 20+ year career since then and they are very busy people. I doubt they remember exactly every little detail of the model and its not worth their time to go back and check. That is if they even could check. If the original model still exists its probably stored on some big tape reel somewhere and if the equipment is still available to read it it's probably only in a format readable by software that no one has used in 20 years. Even if you had the original modeler and asked them for the model of the light cycle, I'm sure they'd start from scratch and come up with something a little different from what was seen in the movie. I couldn't remake an excel file I made 2 years ago for a specific task today without it being atleast a little different. Here we are talking about 20+ years. Look at TRON 2.0, even Disney remade the light cycle from scratch and they own the original model.

I don't know, working on a movie is a little different I think. Plus, TRON was revolutionary at the time. And I don't know any artist that does not like attention from gloating fans... I don't know how you could work on something as cool as the lightcycles and just forget about them, but maybe.

As for the hardware, I think it is totally feasible to get the original configuration and data, if the information was available somewhere. Look at the MAME project and such, they are preserving hardware in the software these days, and there are even hardware emulators of some of the oldest mainframes like DEC-10's and such. Does anyone know what kind of computer system MAGI was using? Getting their software might be the tricky part, as well as the data information for the lightcycles, but those tapes (or disks) must be sitting in a warehouse somewhere...

DaveTRON? Think you could pull some strings? :-)

Matthew



 
wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Wednesday, July, 05, 2006 3:57 PM
matthew180 Wrote:I don't know, working on a movie is a little different I think. Plus, TRON was revolutionary at the time. And I don't know any artist that does not like attention from gloating fans... I don't know how you could work on something as cool as the lightcycles and just forget about them, but maybe.

Oh I'm sure they haven't forgotten about them. The person I'm thinking of is still is fan of the light cycles himself as I got his attention when I posted my light cycle with sidecar model. We even exchanged some artwork but I don't think he wants me giving his name out here. Its just that I imagine some of the specific details get fuzzy over time.

matthew180 Wrote:As for the hardware, I think it is totally feasible to get the original configuration and data, if the information was available somewhere. Look at the MAME project and such, they are preserving hardware in the software these days, and there are even hardware emulators of some of the oldest mainframes like DEC-10's and such. Does anyone know what kind of computer system MAGI was using? Getting their software might be the tricky part, as well as the data information for the lightcycles, but those tapes (or disks) must be sitting in a warehouse somewhere...

I'm not saying it can't be done I just don't think it will be. These people are very busy getting paid on other projects now and if something like this were to be done it would take a fair bit of time. The other big problem is that even if you could convince one of these guys to go hunting for the original model even if they found it they couldn't just give it to us. The model is owned by Disney and even if Disney didn't care these guys know better then to risk their careers giving out that kind of information. As much as I'd like to get my hand on the original model myself I just don't think it's going to happen.

Carl



 
matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Wednesday, July, 05, 2006 4:49 PM
Yeah, I would never expect anyone to actually do something like write a simulator/emulator or anything, that would have to be done via a project like MAME, MESS, or such. But system details would be required. Also, if MAGI created their own software and renderer, access to that software would be required, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one. But just having information about the system and software would be fun to know. I find it hard to believe that a company like MAGI can exist and then die, but nothing of its existence still remains... I know it happens all the time with companies, but if I can keep 5.25" disks for 23+ years with programs I wrote as a teenager, I would think the man who created MAGI would still have something kicking around in his basement. But I suppose it would be up to him to share any of it as well...

I'm not really seriously expecting anyone to step forward with any new information, it would just be nice to get some bits here and there so we can satisfy our unknown desire to accurately reproduce these models. Just seeing the entire assembly clip (which we saw a part of in "Beyond TRON") would be enough for me, or even just screen shots similar to what I did for the assembly of my model. Just some better inside details.

I just find it sad that the information may be sitting some where, and the owners care nothing of it (Disney, etc.), yet they refuse to make anything available to those who have an interest. Yes I know this gets into all kinds of copyright issues, intellectual property rights, and such, so let's not digress into that. However, it is not like anyone is trying to do any of this to make money, a new movie, or anything like that, so what's the harm? We're just fans having fun and appreciating the work. And after all, imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Anyway, back to the lightcycles, what do you think about those explosions and hovering lightcycles? :-)

Matthew



 
TheReelTodd
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Wednesday, July, 05, 2006 6:01 PM
As usual - amazing in-depth study of the light cycle models!

Looking forward to some cool imagery (and hopefully) some videos that result from this discussion!




 
wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Thursday, July, 06, 2006 12:45 PM
matthew180 Wrote:Yeah, I would never expect anyone to actually do something like write a simulator/emulator or anything, that would have to be done via a project like MAME, MESS, or such. But system details would be required. Also, if MAGI created their own software and renderer, access to that software would be required, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one. But just having information about the system and software would be fun to know. I find it hard to believe that a company like MAGI can exist and then die, but nothing of its existence still remains... I know it happens all the time with companies, but if I can keep 5.25" disks for 23+ years with programs I wrote as a teenager, I would think the man who created MAGI would still have something kicking around in his basement. But I suppose it would be up to him to share any of it as well...

I'm got 5.25" disks with programs I wrote 23+ years ago as well. However I haven't tried to read any of them in the last 20 years. What are the odds they are still readable? I don't think 5.25" disk are considered permanent storage media. Oh well... I don't want to get too far off topic either... I have it hard enough just finding the time to deal with the on-topic stuff.

matthew180 Wrote:I'm not really seriously expecting anyone to step forward with any new information, it would just be nice to get some bits here and there so we can satisfy our unknown desire to accurately reproduce these models. Just seeing the entire assembly clip (which we saw a part of in "Beyond TRON") would be enough for me, or even just screen shots similar to what I did for the assembly of my model. Just some better inside details.

Stuff like that may be out there. For example:

http://www.tron-sector.com/gallery/default.aspx?do=gallery§ion=1&category=4&group=Printouts
But how to get those that have this stuff to share it is anyone's guess.

matthew180 Wrote:I just find it sad that the information may be sitting some where, and the owners care nothing of it (Disney, etc.), yet they refuse to make anything available to those who have an interest. Yes I know this gets into all kinds of copyright issues, intellectual property rights, and such, so let's not digress into that. However, it is not like anyone is trying to do any of this to make money, a new movie, or anything like that, so what's the harm? We're just fans having fun and appreciating the work. And after all, imitation is the highest form of flattery.

I certainly agree.

matthew180 Wrote:Anyway, back to the lightcycles, what do you think about those explosions and hovering lightcycles? :-)

Matthew

I think you hit the mother load with those expolsion pics. GREAT JOB. I had a ton of stuff I wanted to say yesterday even before you posted those I just simply didn't have enough hours in the day. I'll try to reply to that post now and with luck be able to make another post or two today.

Carl




 
wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Thursday, July, 06, 2006 1:44 PM
matthew180 Wrote:You're right, I didn't notice that about the rear wheel, thanks! I swear that perspective is going to get me every time. I'll get the wheel moved. I also found a screen shot that shows a bottom view of the lightcycle and it would definately fit inside the wheel-well without being cut.

Agreed...

matthew180 Wrote:I sat up for 3 hours last night single stepping through every scene with lightcycles in them and I found the images that show the lightcycles hovering above the game grid. The res-up footage shows this. You can't see it during the actual footage on the game grid because there is always a shadow, but I did find one frame that could support the hovering.

I've spent hours studying every scene before too. Yesterday I ran home and stuck the DVD in on my lunch hour just to check a few things again myself. I feel like I've studied every frame of film with a lightcycle in it and there are times I think one needs to study every pixel of every frame as I'm still having things I didn't notice before pointed out to me.

As for the hovering... I just don't see it. In the res-up footage the camera is very low to the ground and with the software MAGI used the white lines on the game grid don't narrow with distance from the camera the way they should. Its something between maintaining a constant width regardless of distance from the camera and the correct behavior. This in effect turns the game grid a solid white in the distance. That is if the grid lines aren't turned off in one direction or the other in the distance. The animation from page 1 of this thread is a great example.


Note the grid soon becomes a solid white just over the light cycles. Also note that on the left of the image the grid lines that run parallel to the wall on that side of the image stop well short of the wall. In fact as the camera gets lower and lower the stopping point seems to come closer and closer to us.

Now back to the hovering bikes. I think what you are seeing is just white from grid lines that are between the camera and the lightcycles. If they are above the grid then I'd say the jet wall they leave behind is the exact same distance above the game grid.

This picture:


I think clearly shows the jet walls do contact the game grid as the jet wall shadows go right up to their bases. I also see a black spot where the rear wheel touchs the ground. I see the white from the width of the jet wall off to both sides so this tells me the rear wheel should be touching the game grid as well.

matthew180 Wrote:I also found new proof of the wings being one piece! The lightcycle explosions are our dream come true since they show the parts of the lightcycle! They also indicate that the fender is a pipe (hollow cylinder), not a cone as I thought. The main canopy is tapered which seems to cut the fender such that it looks like a cone.

Agreed on all points...

matthew180 Wrote:Also, you can see the transmission geometry!! Off to the left just above the chassis. I'll have to study that for a while to figure out what it's made of. You can also see the rear wheel's hub and other parts.

Again... GREAT EYE!!!. I've got many thoughts on the transmission geometry and I need to generate a few images so I'll save that for another post.

matthew180 Wrote:Very cool information in those explosion images. There are two other explosion clips, but they are not as clear as this one was. I think I just got my geometry down by at least 3 primitives, if not 4!! My wing ellipse will become one, the fender cutter goes away and the fender becomes a cyliner (pipe),

Does that really save you a primitive? You simply replace a cone with a cylinder don't you? T


 
matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Thursday, July, 06, 2006 7:29 PM
wwwmwww Wrote:Well if you get right down to it CSGs don't have wireframes. At least they don't in POV-Ray and I doubt they did in what MAGI used either. Only meshes have wireframes.

The software I use (realsoft 3D) has true primitives and they represent them with a minimum number of "wires" for wireframe modeling, like this:


This is an ellipse acting like a sphere. ;-) There are setting to increase the number of wires used to represent the primitives, which starts to make them look more like a mesh, like this:


But that just slows down the modeling, and I pretty much model in Top, Left, or Front views instead of the isometric view. My lightcycle looks like this most of the time:


I wonder if the MAGI software had any similar options? We at least know they can do shaded with outline, similar to this:


But obviously their software worked a little different in this aspect.


wwwmwww Wrote:I think you hit the mother load with those explosion pics. GREAT JOB. I had a ton of stuff I wanted to say yesterday even before you posted those I just simply didn't have enough hours in the day. I'll try to reply to that post now and with luck be able to make another post or two today.

Thanks! And I know what you mean about time. I'm scraping in every available minute I have to this conversation, but I'm also enjoying the heck out of it. Take your time, I'll just continue to pummel you with images, questions, and comments. :-)


wwwmwww Wrote:I'm got 5.25" disks with programs I wrote 23+ years ago as well. However I haven't tried to read any of them in the last 20 years. What are the odds they are still readable? I don't think 5.25" disk are considered permanent storage media. Oh well... I don't want to get too far off topic either... I have it hard enough just finding the time to deal with the on-topic stuff.


My first computer was a TI-99/4A that my dad bought me in 1983, just after TRON was released, and the first thing I did was write a lightcycle game (after I learned to program.) :-) Long story short, recently I dug that computer back out and have been getting back into it (retro computing and all that) and I'm finding the floppies from back then are more reliable than ones I bought a few weeks ago. Not that this has anything to do with lightcycles, just that those 20+ year old disks (computers, and drives) are still ticking along just fine.


wwwmwww Wrote:As for the hovering... I just don't see it. In the res-up footage the camera is very low to the ground and with the software MAGI used the white lines on the game grid don't narrow with distance from the camera the way they should. Its something between maintaining a constant width regardless of distance from the camera and the correct behavior.

The camera is low, that's for sure, and again it could be the perspective making it look that way. But it sure looks like they are floating, just slightly. If you single step he blue lightcycle res-up sequence, right in the last few frames before they start moving you see what looks like the shadow adjusting to the height, or something like that. I didn't capture those frames, but I'll try to get them sometime.

As for the jet walls themselves, yes, I agree they do sit right down on the game grid, there is no doubt about that and plenty of footage that shows it.

But as for this picture:


I'm still not convinced that the rear tire is cutting the jet wall there along the bottom. If you follow the na


 
matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Friday, July, 07, 2006 3:47 PM


 
wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Friday, July, 07, 2006 4:46 PM
matthew180 Wrote:I made one of the easiest kinds of animation (a rotation) and thought it would be fun to share it.

Very very nice... Atleast you didn't ask any more questions as I'm already far enough behind. Life has just been crazy the last 2 days. I've got about 45 minutes now and I'm rendering something now as I type. I hope to have a another post up soon...

Carl


 
matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Friday, July, 07, 2006 8:11 PM


 
wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Friday, July, 07, 2006 8:45 PM
matthew180 Wrote:The software I use (realsoft 3D) has true primitives and they represent them with a minimum number of "wires" for wireframe modeling, like this:

That's a nice little feature. I wish POV-Ray could do that. By the way, I've been meaning to ask how you did the torus? On page 1 you had said Realsoft 3D didn't have a torus as a primitive. Is that part a mesh... if so I can't tell.

matthew180 Wrote:But that just slows down the modeling, and I pretty much model in Top, Left, or Front views instead of the isometric view. My lightcycle looks like this most of the time:

Interesting image. Can you move that "wire frame" for lack of a better term around in real time? That must be great for camera placement, etc.

matthew180 Wrote:I wonder if the MAGI software had any similar options? We at least know they can do shaded with outline, similar to this:

I'm pretty sure they didn't. There is a part on the DVD where they talk about Sark's carrier going through the de-rezzing square (I think that's what its called at the moment). In that discussion they talk about how hard it was because the red wire frame didn't exist and that it itself had to be modeled. I assume they did exactly what I had to do to get the red wire frame of my tank.


If you want to know how MAGI did their outlining read this:

http://www.wwwmwww.com/TRON/NehGat00.pdf
I'm about 99% sure this is exactly how they did it.

matthew180 Wrote:But obviously their software worked a little different in this aspect.

Agreed... see above.

matthew180 Wrote:Thanks! And I know what you mean about time. I'm scraping in every available minute I have to this conversation, but I'm also enjoying the heck out of it. Take your time, I'll just continue to pummel you with images, questions, and comments. :-)

I love conversations like this. If you pull all my discussions about light cycles together that I've had here at TRON-Sector you may have enought for a dissertation on Lightcycles and Lightcycle Mechanics.

matthew180 Wrote:My first computer was a TI-99/4A that my dad bought me in 1983, just after TRON was released, and the first thing I did was write a lightcycle game (after I learned to program.) :-)

I went to computer camp the summer before my freshman year of high school. That was in 1983. I learned enough in that one week that later when I took a computer class in high school I knew more about them then the teacher did and I in effect ended up teaching the teacher so she could teach the class. Prior to that year she simply tought typing and I guess the management of the school at the time thought computers were just fancy typewriters. Anyways I too got my first computer in the summer of 1983. It was a Sanyo 555 and its claim to fame was that it was 99% IBM compatible. Which in effect meant that any program over 100 lines of code wouldn't run on both systems making it 0% IBM compatible in my opinion. I too typed in a very simple lightcyle game back in that time frame. I didn't write it myself I think I got it out of one of the Sanyo 555 user magazines I was getting at the time. The light cycles were simple square blocks that left a wall that was as wide as they were where ever they went. It was a rather simple 1 or 2 page program as I recall. Two people could play and both used keys on the keyboard to control their block. Hmmm... I wonder if any of the Tron collectors here have that issue. I might still have it somewhere but I'd have to dig through 20+ years of stuff to check. My favorite Sanyo 555 game at the time was CashMan. I wonder it anyone else even remembers that game today. Ahhh... those were the days. I even had an all amber monitor which was 10 times better then the all gree


 
wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Friday, July, 07, 2006 9:04 PM
matthew180 Wrote:Check it out! I asked on the Realsoft 3D forum for help with making a grid like the one from TRON, and within an hour someone produced a new material with an interface! Look at this!!

Here is the link to the guys site:

http://www.matthias-kappenberg.de/index.php?id=165
Haha, I'm working on getting this set up now. I can't stop smiling, this looks sooo good. This rocks. :-)

Not bad... not bad at all. In fact that's the best game grid effect I've seen yet. Now I just need you to get him to port it to POV-Ray with enough documentation that I can tell what he's doing. Very very cool... I'll try to take a closer look at his web site when I have some more time. Odds are its all over my head but I sure would like to know how he did that.

Carl



 
matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Saturday, July, 08, 2006 3:03 PM
wwwmwww Wrote:
matthew180 Wrote:The software I use (realsoft 3D) has true primitives and they represent them with a minimum number of "wires" for wireframe modeling, like this:

That's a nice little feature. I wish POV-Ray could do that. By the way, I've been meaning to ask how you did the torus? On page 1 you had said Realsoft 3D didn't have a torus as a primitive. Is that part a mesh... if so I can't tell.

Well, most modelers are going to have a wireframe view for working, as well as a solid view, which in Realsoft 3D is done via OpenGL. They have a 60-day trial download, you should check it out. Of all the programs I have used, I find modeling with Realsoft the most intuitive.

http://realsoft.fi
As for the torus, I made a cross-section nurb circle and rotated it around an axis to make the torus. Here is the construction process, frame 1 is the cross-section circle and the axis, frame 2 shows the wireframe after construction (which simply required pushing the "rotation" button), frame 3 is the OpenGL real time view, frame 4 is rendered (no lights, no materials).


wwwmwww Wrote:
matthew180 Wrote:But that just slows down the modeling, and I pretty much model in Top, Left, or Front views instead of the isometric view. My lightcycle looks like this most of the time:

Interesting image. Can you move that "wire frame" for lack of a better term around in real time? That must be great for camera placement, etc.

Yes, the wireframe and OpenGL rendered views are real time and it is very helpful for many things, camera placement (as you mentioned) and animation preveiw are among them. I find it difficult to model at arbitrary angles though (but you can do it), so I'm constantly switching the view to top, left, or front for modeling and the rotating to see how it looks. You can set many views, and each one can show your work a different way. The only thing that is not real time is when you render the view with the raytracer. But there are also many settings for the raytracer as well, so you can get a quick render to see how things are looking, all the way up to a full blown super high quality raytrace complete with anti-aliasing and caustics. It is a very powerful program even though it is somewhat of an underdog. The user-base is small (compared to something like Maya or Max), but dedicated. Check it out, you might like it.

wwwmwww Wrote:I'm pretty sure they didn't. There is a part on the DVD where they talk about Sark's carrier going through the de-rezzing square (I think that's what its called at the moment). In that discussion they talk about how hard it was because the red wire frame didn't exist and that it itself had to be modeled. I assume they did exactly what I had to do to get the red wire frame of my tank.

Okay, just stop right there for a moment of silence... That tank is freaking awesome! Did you use the modified POV-Ray (as described in that paper you linked) to get that outline? I would have a hard time coming up with raytraced outlines, but I've already asked in the Realsoft forum, so we'll see what the gurus have to say. I'm going to do the tank next, after we beat the lightcycle do death, agree on all the geometry (heh), and determine what all the parts really are.

wwwmwww Wrote:If you want to know how MAGI did their outlining read this:

http://www.wwwmwww.com/TRON/NehGat00.pdf
I'm about 99% sure this is exactly how they did it.

I read it, but it was late. I don't understand enough yet to be able to actually implement what they are talking about, but I asked the Realsoft users if someone might step up and make a material or script to do it. Since the development team is small, they may find it interesting and bu


 
wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Saturday, July, 08, 2006 6:34 PM
matthew180 Wrote:Well, most modelers are going to have a wireframe view for working, as well as a solid view, which in Realsoft 3D is done via OpenGL. They have a 60-day trial download, you should check it out. Of all the programs I have used, I find modeling with Realsoft the most intuitive.

http://realsoft.fi

I'll try to check it out one of these days. I was first introduced to POV-Ray back in the mid 90's. Upon first seeing it I told myself that is something I HAVE to learn how to use one of these days. In Septemper of 2003 I was laid off and it took me 6 months to find another job. It wasn't until then that I had the kind of time I needed to teach myself the basics. I'm still FAR from considering myself a POV-Ray guru

matthew180 Wrote:As for the torus, I made a cross-section nurb circle and rotated it around an axis to make the torus. Here is the construction process, frame 1 is the cross-section circle and the axis, frame 2 shows the wireframe after construction (which simply required pushing the "rotation" button), frame 3 is the OpenGL real time view, frame 4 is rendered (no lights, no materials).

In POV-Ray I think that would be called a surface of rotation. I haven't used that feature so much but I think the exact same thing can be done. Its just not a point and click interface.

matthew180 Wrote:Yes, the wireframe and OpenGL rendered views are real time and it is very helpful for many things, camera placement (as you mentioned) and animation preveiw are among them. I find it difficult to model at arbitrary angles though (but you can do it), so I'm constantly switching the view to top, left, or front for modeling and the rotating to see how it looks. You can set many views, and each one can show your work a different way. The only thing that is not real time is when you render the view with the raytracer. But there are also many settings for the raytracer as well, so you can get a quick render to see how things are looking, all the way up to a full blown super high quality raytrace complete with anti-aliasing and caustics. It is a very powerful program even though it is somewhat of an underdog. The user-base is small (compared to something like Maya or Max), but dedicated. Check it out, you might like it.

It does sound nice. POV-Ray doesn't have any real time mode. I do most of the modeling and planning of animations in my head and I don't really see what I've got till I render it. I think its stated the folks at MAGI worked the same way on the DVD at times.

matthew180 Wrote:Okay, just stop right there for a moment of silence... That tank is freaking awesome! Did you use the modified POV-Ray (as described in that paper you linked) to get that outline?

You are too kind. And no I don't have access to the modified POV-Ray mentioned in that paper. I emailed the authors once and asked if they still had their modified source code and they didn't. And modifying the POV-Ray source code is well above what I'm able to do.

The oultine you see there is actual geometry. The strait lines are cylinders, some of the curved lines are tori, etc. Note they even cast shadows. If I had used the method in the paper there would be no way to show the outline by itself without the cannon present and even if you could it wouldn't be actual geometry and thus wouldn't cast a shadow.

By the way, that image was first posted at TRON-Sector here:

http://www.tron-sector.com/forums/default.aspx?do=top&id=268618
My second attempt at humor fell much flatter then my first.

matthew180 Wrote:I would have a hard time coming up with raytraced outlines, but I've already asked in the Realsoft forum, so we'll see what the gurus have to say. I'm going to do the tank next, after we beat the lightcycle do death, agree on all the geometry (heh), and d



 
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Monday, July, 10, 2006 3:22 PM
wwwmwww Wrote:I'll try to check it out one of these days. I was first introduced to POV-Ray back in the mid 90's. Upon first seeing it I told myself that is something I HAVE to learn how to use one of these days.

Yeah, I learned about POV in like 1992 and have always wanted to give it a shot. Being a programmer the low-level and exact control over the objects is appealing. But, having a real-time modeler is really nice too, since that's more how humans interact with real-world objects. I think there are some GUI modelers for POV, no?

wwwmwww Wrote:In POV-Ray I think that would be called a surface of rotation. I haven't used that feature so much but I think the exact same thing can be done. Its just not a point and click interface.

For me it was my only choice (or use an SDS object, but the nurb mesh is easier to construct) since Realsoft does not provide the torus primitive. The nice thing about Realsoft is that the parts used to construct the mesh, i.e. the circle and axis, are retained and can be modified, thus modifying the resulting mesh.

wwwmwww Wrote:You are too kind. And no I don't have access to the modified POV-Ray mentioned in that paper. I emailed the authors once and asked if they still had their modified source code and they didn't. And modifying the POV-Ray source code is well above what I'm able to do.

Well, it's a great model! A lot of hard work went into that and I think people these days take computer graphics for granted because they are used everywhere. I have the same problem with writing software, people think it should be cheap and instant, the "dot-com crash" is proof of this general naivety towards computers, software, and the Internet.

wwwmwww Wrote:The oultine you see there is actual geometry. The strait lines are cylinders, some of the curved lines are tori, etc. Note they even cast shadows. If I had used the method in the paper there would be no way to show the outline by itself without the cannon present and even if you could it wouldn't be actual geometry and thus wouldn't cast a shadow.

Wow! That is a lot of work, but the results are fantastic.

wwwmwww Wrote:By the way, that image was first posted at TRON-Sector here:

http://www.tron-sector.com/forums/default.aspx?do=top&id=268618
My second attempt at humor fell much flatter then my first.

Haha, that was funny enough to get a chuckle out of me...

wwwmwww Wrote:Sounds good. Some of your part names I don't particularly like but I do think that was a GREAT idea. It sure makes things easier to talk about.

Well, let's change them then. I could not see trying to have a conversation about lightcycles if everyone was calling the parts by a different name. Here is my list and some reasoning, let's get something we both like. I call anything used in a boolean operation that removes geometry from another object a "cutter". We can change that too. I tried to come up with names that seemed logical and that would give each part a purpose other than "upper side effects", "lower side effects", etc.:

1. Canopy (does not include windshield or shoulders)
2. Canopy Shoulders (the tori)
3. Canopy Sides (now includes what I was calling the "side lower" and "side toe" as one polygon. So I suppose this name should simply become "Sides".)
4. Foot Rest (only thing I could come up with)
5. Trim
6. Windshield
7. Wings (that's just what they look like... at little... )
8. Chassis (the rest of the lightcycle is built on this)
9. Engine (maybe should be changed to power supply, battery, capacitor, wheel cone?)
10. Transmission (can't have an engine without a transmission. But the lightcycles go from zero to top-speed instantly, so I suppose a transmission would not be required.)
11. Light Jets (the jet wall has to be made by


 
wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Monday, July, 10, 2006 6:35 PM
matthew180 Wrote:
Yeah, I learned about POV in like 1992 and have always wanted to give it a shot. Being a programmer the low-level and exact control over the objects is appealing. But, having a real-time modeler is really nice too, since that's more how humans interact with real-world objects. I think there are some GUI modelers for POV, no?

I'm sure there are. In fact its posible to port meshs into POV-Ray so one might even be able to use Realsoft as a GUI front end for POV-Ray if you wanted to bad enough. I just haven't played with them much.

matthew180 Wrote:Well, it's a great model! A lot of hard work went into that

Yes, it took longer to model that outline then it did the rest of the tank. However since its real geometry it adds a ton of time to all of my tank renders. I can now render most light cycle pics in a few seconds. My tank shots still are taking hours (if not days) so I'll have to revist this if I'm going to try and animate my tank.

matthew180 Wrote:Wow! That is a lot of work, but the results are fantastic.

Thanks.

matthew180 Wrote:Well, let's change them then. I could not see trying to have a conversation about lightcycles if everyone was calling the parts by a different name. Here is my list and some reasoning, let's get something we both like.

Its a good start and certainly better then anything I've put out there. Let me think about this one.

matthew180 Wrote:Are the spokes on both sides? Anyway, suggest any changes for terms you don't like and we'll get the names firmed up for the reference. Some of the names I took from your POV model...

Again I'll have to think about this one... for example "wings" I'd reserve for a part of a vehicle that flys. And some of the others I can't think of anything better to call them at the moment. For now we just need a name to help with the discussion so its clear what we are talking about. Once we are happy with the geometry we can revist this.

And to your question... are the spokes on both sides? I'm not sure. The same primitive can be exteded through the wheel so it shows on boths sides so it won't affect the primitive count either way. As far as looking at the film I'm not sure if you can tell. You never see both sides at the same time and in a fair number of shots the negatives are flipped so its hard to even tell if you are looking at the left of the right side of the actual MAGI model. In some shots you can tell if you can see the arena wall in the background and some of the numerals are backwards then you know the negatives have been flipped. If you can find proof that the spokes can be seen from both the left side and the right side of the MAGI model then I'd say the spokes are on both sides. Time to pull out the DVDs again.

matthew180 Wrote:A list of links would be an excellent start, but without the forum search working it would be a pains taking process. I've only been hanging out here for two weeks or so, so I'm not familiar with the previous conversations. If you have a list started, let's get that up somewhere and add to it until we get our official guide made.

Sorry... I don't have much of a list. The links in this thread would be a good place to start.

matthew180 Wrote:No, I did not see that link before, thanks! At 4 pages it's going to take me a while to digest it all! I skimmed the first page though, and it looks very cool. Without having read the whole thing, I just want to make two comments from what I saw:

1. The movement made by the lightcycles to cut off the last blue lightcycle is what I would call a "strafe". Normally you only see the lightcycles make 90 degree turns, but it seems they can make a quick jog to the side without actually turning. The yellow lightcycle makes the move just before t



 
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Tuesday, July, 11, 2006 12:02 AM
wwwmwww Wrote:I'm sure there are. In fact its posible to port meshs into POV-Ray so one might even be able to use Realsoft as a GUI front end for POV-Ray if you wanted to bad enough. I just haven't played with them much.

I probably could, but then everything is a mesh, and I so do like to use primitives!

wwwmwww Wrote:Yes, it took longer to model that outline then it did the rest of the tank. However since its real geometry it adds a ton of time to all of my tank renders. I can now render most light cycle pics in a few seconds. My tank shots still are taking hours (if not days) so I'll have to revist this if I'm going to try and animate my tank.

Hours? That is a long time for just one frame. I would not expect times like that unless I was rendering caustics or a scene with a lot of transparent and/or reflective objects. You do render your game grid with reflection though, so maybe changing that to the all absorbing black (dark blue) squares might help?

As for true wireframes in Realsoft, the gurus have shown me a way to make nurb curves have a radius, and thus thickness! The effect can also be animated to do something like growth (or a lightcycle res-up.) Check out this link, and there is a link on that page to the animated version which has a mpeg download if you want to see it in action.

http://www.bt-3d.de/div/v45shader/v5/nurbs_intro.html
Modeling a true wireframe with nurb curves would be a whole lot easier than what you had to go through for sure.

wwwmwww Wrote:Its a good start and certainly better then anything I've put out there. Let me think about this one... for example "wings" I'd reserve for a part of a vehicle that flys. And some of the others I can't think of anything better to call them at the moment. For now we just need a name to help with the discussion so its clear what we are talking about. Once we are happy with the geometry we can revist this.

Just let me know. Some of the names I'm not happy with either. Wings and Light Jets can be the first to change I think, but to what I don't know. Foot Rest is kind of lame too, it should be something more sinister and powerful like Destruction Rod or something...

wwwmwww Wrote:And to your question... are the spokes on both sides? I'm not sure. The same primitive can be exteded through the wheel so it shows on boths sides so it won't affect the primitive count either way. As far as looking at the film I'm not sure if you can tell.

I think I'll run them all the way through. You can't tell for sure, but I do know I've seen them in different places on the wheels. Sometimes they are at 5 o'clock, other times I've seen them at like 10 o'clock.

wwwmwww Wrote:Sorry... I don't have much of a list. The links in this thread would be a good place to start.

I'll run through and collect the links that have been presented and put them up someplace. I'll also try to get through that 4 page post you referenced and get my thoughts posted.

wwwmwww Wrote:Well I still need to make a few pictures and test a few things. I think an ellipsoid could be used as I have done and if its stretched enough the lines that you've pointed out appear strait on film I think would appear strait on the model. There are also a few frames which I think may even show some curvature which you'd only get with an ellipsoid but I can't really tell for sure. It may just be the interplay of light and shadow. When I first made my model I used 2 cones for each part as you have done and I was never happy with the look. The shadows never looked right to me and I told myself I needed some more curvature at the front. If the parts curved out more at the front (as they would with an ellipse) then the front would be a bit beefier and cast a little bigger shadow. However this whole conversatio



 
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