also when "flynn said our worlds are more connected than
anyone realizes"

it got me thinking- on some aspects of that connection.

we know that the system responds to
thought. which of course implies that (on some level)
the system can read thoughts.

but the process is not perfect - which could
imply that the system is a healthy chaotic system
the system can create building and recognizers
and light cycles with a resonable amount of
perfection.

but when it comes to the programs, the system
does the best it can.

it's been set as fact, that in the first tron movie
and novelization that programs take on the mental
characteristics of their programmers/users.
like: loyalty , sense of purpose, honor, integrity,

remember gibbs in the first tron movie. he said "our spirit
remains in every program we designed for this computer"

well not the whole spirit, remember the process is
not perfect.

take the case of the MCP in the first tron. dillinger
wrote the program. the system then reacts to dillingers
thoughts

the system copies from dillingers mind - the character
traits that the system deems will be needed by the
dillinger/MCP program- in order for the program to function

which is why the MCP is power hungry. to function
in our world dillinger needed to be crafty and power-hungy.

now think of allan bradley who wrote the security program
tron. allan has intense loyalty to his friends, a strong
sense of right and wrong, and a strong sense of purpose.

the system copies from allan thoughts some of the mental attributes
his doppelganger/program (tron) needs to function as a
security program.

the system also appeared to have added an athletic
body and enhanced reflexes to the tron body

like i said the process is not perfect. the system
interprets what the user wants.

the parts that the user does not specify, the
system fills in. to meet the requirements of the program.

easy- if programming a light cycle- not so easy for programs because
the system usally utilizes interpretations of what the system
thinks the user wants.

in short the programmer (from the keyboard) has no control on what mental attributes the system will copy from the programmer mind.

and in flynns case of designing programs from inside the grid
he has limited control on the mental characteristics
of his programs

zordmaker Wrote:One of the reasons why reviews have been so contradicting is because #2 failed on the rules front. Many reviewers (incorrectly) perceived that T:L was poor on story which made the film boring. However many others wrote the opposite - that the story was actually very strong and one of the most satisfying aspects of the film. The truth as to why this happened is because yes, there IS a very good story in there - but it wasn't very well TOLD. The makers of T:L failed on the skill of being able to tell the story in pictures and instead made the film backwards - make the pictures first and then tell the story by throwing them together in post and dont worry about the missing bits - the viewer will fill in the gaps. And the viewers did - some of them. But unfortunately then a heap of others didn't - and were bored silly when they couldn't work out what was happening. Story telling in film is becoming a lost art in Hollywood. Lets hope in @3 there's enough experience at the top to make sure that story gets told - and the rules get locked down and followed. Right about NOW, instead of six weeks before final print, as was obviously the case with T:L. ZM

i wrote a long post in the "Tron: Legacy fail point" thread and you just sum up everything for me. There is only one thing you miss. There's a reason why they think the viewers can fill the gap, because they already release part of the story somewhere else before Tron Legacy.

If you have seen comic books Tron: Betrayal, video games Tron: Evolution and possibly Battle Grids, you'll know the gap the audience need is indeed in books or games rather than the movie.

Tell me if any director in the world will expect every one to see their books or games before enjoying their movies. No one would.

The whole level in Hollywood is not good overall in the past few years in fairness. However, there are still director like Christopher Nolan, James Cameron, David Fincher, etc who did really well in story telling. where to buy abortion pill ordering abortion pills to be shipped to house buy abortion pill online

additional proof of of the system making its
own interpretations on what mental
characteristics to give to a program

the system obviously copied flynn's coup d'etat mentality
in clu's creation process.

remember that in the first tron movie flynn's
exploits resulted in a corporate coup d'etat
with flynn wrestling control of ENCOM from
dillinger

this coup metality was copied/inherited into clu

by the way - when i say mentality - i mean
the character trait to consider a coup, and the
ability to rationalize a coup.

consider: flynn felt (in the first tron movie) that
dillinger wronged him therefore flynns strong
sense of purpose allowed flynn to gather evidence
against dillinger, then stage a corporate coup
resulting in flynn controlling ENCOM

consider: clu felt flynn had wronged him and
clu's strong sense of purpose allowed clu
to stage a coup resulting in clu controlling
the grid.

see the parallels?

we could also infer that the renegade programs
(planning a revolution against clu )inherited
their coup mentality from flynn

feel free to add more Grid rules. and bounce ideas
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Kat Wrote: rimwall Wrote:the grid/system responds to programmers/users thoughts (established in tron 1 where flynn reassembled the broken recognizer) if the system can respond to thoughts then it implies that the system can probably (on some level) read users/programmers minds I guess I always imagined that as being a bit more like meditation than mind-reading. Like, say, psychokinesis. Something you have to focus on doing and sending, rather than it being something that is open all the time. You focus your mind to do whatever you want to achieve, but it's not like your brain is an open book and the system is somewhere giggling, "Heh, he just thought about sex!"

i considered that too, and in flynn's case that
is certainly valid - since flynn has the unique
perspective of knowing the system from the inside.

but i could not reconcile how tron inherited his
mental attributes from allan (from first movie)

when programming tron (in the first movie) we
can assume that allan was not thinking what mental
attributes his program should have (after all allan
has no knowledge that programs are manifested inside
the system with mental attributes of their programmers)
allan was only thinking of programming code and logic.

i needed to reconcile flynn's meditations and
allan's code programming of tron.

the only way i could reconcile these two was to assume the
system is capable of reading minds (on some level)

i say on some level because mind reading can have levels,
sensing emotions is one level, sensing immediate thoughts
is another level, sensing the subconcious is another level
reading entire contents of memory is another level.

we could not say on what level the system reads minds tho.
flynn might be able to exercise little more control (from the inside)
i say a little since i cant imagine flynn intentionally giving clu
a coup mentality.

by the way, what i mean by system is everything, the sky
land air rocks programs, the mechanism of creating programs
and isos, everything. so im going to provisionally
assume system as everything
(like a healthy chaotic ecosystem)

----
the system is somewhere giggling, "Heh, he just thought about sex!"
----

that is definitely valid. the more uhm... amorous activities
in castors bar certainly supports it.

side note
depression can also exist in the grid (evidenced by the bum in the alley).

side note 2
even tho we can see the characteristics that the system
copies from a programmer. we cannot predict what mental
characteristics become dominant.

our inability to predict is an indicator of a healthy
chaotic system. think jurassic park's chaos theory,
the system is exhibiting the same healthy unpredictable state.

a healthy chaotic system has deeper implications
a lot deeper

terrychoichelsea Wrote: There's a reason why they think the viewers can fill the gap, because they already release part of the story somewhere else before Tron Legacy.

To some extent, leaving gaps is good in Scifi\Fantasy. It's fun to let the audience join the dots. But this is where it becomes so important to set rules and follow them.

Because without those rules the audience can't fill those gaps. Instead of arguing "well this could have happened but no it couldnt because of this, etc etc", it becomes "Well anything could have happened in there couldn't it. I'll never know, there's no point in trying to figure it out, oh hang the whole lot, this film is boring".

So gents, and we all know you're reading all this stuff..

RULES. remember that.

Enough of this Power Rangers crap. Stop making a series of cool commercials strung together and start making MOVIES. If you can't get that story across using just storyboards and no dialogue (like the first team did) then you're wasting your time.

You've left a legacy. Now respect it, learn and move on.

ZM
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-----------
Wait, but you're saying the system doesn't just read minds of users IN the grid, but any user at the computer? So in essence, my computer is reading my mind right now? the first way might make some sense as in the Grid, a user or program is "part" of the system. But to say my little computer is sitting down there delving into my brain...bit bigger stretch. I mean, there's no explanation for why a program should look like its user either, but I think folks here have mentioned before that somehow a part of the user goes into the program through the coding (which makes no less sense than the idea that programs are little people running around inside your computer to begin with).
----------

my apologies, i used the term user loosely.

let me rephrase... during the process of program
creation/coding the system reads (on some level)
the mind of the programmer.

the book used the term programmer and user
loosely - i should have been more specific

the copying of mental characteristics is based
on the novelization of the first
book (i'm assuming the screenwriters
are using the rules in the book to be canon)

----
But to say my little computer is sitting down there delving into my brain...bit bigger stretch. I mean, there's no explanation for why a program should look like its user either, but I think folks here have mentioned before that somehow a part of the user goes into the program through the coding
----

lets try another approach... disregard the reading of
minds for now - and lets try to account for each anomaly

you need some method/explanation to account for similarity of
user and program facial characteristics

you need another separate method/explanation to account
for the system filling in physical characteristics
like agility or enhanced reflexes

you need another separate method/explanation for
the similarity of mental characteristics between
programmer and program.

you need another separate method/explanation for
the ability of flynn to re-assemble the broken
recognizer.

you need another separate method/explanation to
account for the conversations between programmer and
program

here's a sample of conversation from the first movie:

scene: flynn in front of computer talking to clu
who was in his tank

flynn: clu we havent got much time to find that file.
this is top priority

clu:yes sir i know sir

flynn: this isn't just checking my bank statement or
phone bill problem again this is a must.

clu: yes sir i understand sir.

it doesn't look like something you would type
at the keyboard does it?

allans conversation with tron in the i/o tower
also has this same non-codelike quality.

so you need a separate way to account for the
programs and programmers talking in
conversational english.

i am actually amenable to having separate
explanations for each anomaly -even tho it would result
in a lot more rules

i am also amenable to blanket all anomalies under the
explanation that system can read minds (on some level).
the facial similarity can be explained too, because
programmers mind contains a picture of what he looks like.

i am also amenable to blanket anomalies under the
statement that part of the programmers spirit goes
into the program (gibbs in first movie)

so i guess... dealers choice.
especially the part about user talking to program.
the movie has only depicted conversations
between programmer and program

you can add a rule for conversations/interaction between
user and program

one of the main purposes of this thread is to nail
down those rules and find more rules
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kat, i have to admit tho, you're question has also
sparked me to look at the movie's method of abstraction-
or the movies choices of representation/imagining.

lets examine one... choosing humans forms to represent programs:

the tron universe has allowed human-form-programs to experience
love, betrayal,depression, lust, stress, relaxation, anger... we've seen
a lot of emotions and there is probably more that i have missed.

also we can infer a lot more emotions via Justification ... like saying
if love can exist then jelousy can exist, yearning can exist,
a needy girlfriend can exist, a stalker boyfriend can exist,
rejection can exists, a program overeating for love compensation can exist
(which means you can have fat programs)

remember the pudgy program who flynn fought jai-alai with.
is he pudgy because of overeating to compensate for lost love?
is he pudgy because his programmer was pudgy?

we can Justify/rationalize a lot...but where can we draw the line.
--- where do we expect the writers to draw the line.
------ where do the writers expect us to draw the line.

not having a clear delineated line is sometimes good
and sometimes bad as misinterpretations is guaranteed to occur.

the choices of representation/imagining for the tron universe
is a form of abstraction - the problem with abstraction is
i'ts property of vaGueness.

the problem is how to depict a movie based on an abstraction
while still trying to maintain the illusion that
the universe the movie depicts, has a clear-cut consistent set of rules.

vague is good of course, a common vision that writer and
viewer share is also good.

i have another more concrete example for later... but for now...

thoughts? and feel free to add more Grid rules and bounce ideas.

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The Grid rules:

1st RULE: You do not talk about The Grid to people in the real world.

2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about Flynn.. if you want to live.

3rd RULE: If someone says "I believe in the Users" or goes "not the games!", or looses their Identity Disk during the games, your freedom on The Grid is over and will be subject to immediate de-resolution.

4th RULE: Only two Programa in the final Disc Wars match.

5th RULE: One disc at a time. (Only Rinzler is exempted from this rule)

6th RULE: No real world shirts, no real world shoes. (applies to any Users tha may appear on The Grid)

7th RULE: The games will go on as long as they have to.

8th RULE: If it is a User's or rogue Program's first night in The Grid, he or she HAS to fight in the games if scanned and deemed not suitable for rectification.