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 My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)


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Argent
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Posts: 274
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Sunday, February, 27, 2011 11:45 PM
LWSrocks Wrote:About the games. One thing that can't be explained is the scene where that one kid at the arcade is playing light cycles, and see Sark.

I think those shots were meant to establish that a digital universe exists inside every piece of computing hardware, from corporate mainframes down to arcade games. Interestingly, it's also evidence that multiple copies of programs can exist independently of each other on different hardware.

As far as why we see Sark as the enemy rider, rather than Clu or someone like him (since it is one of Flynn's games), that is a little strange. From an out-of-universe perspective, I think it's because the filmmakers wanted to establish Sark as the heavy from early on, and showing a program with the hero's face as a villain might have confused audiences. In-universe, I can rationalize it by assuming that Dillinger hacked some of his own code into Flynn's original Light Cycles game code (under the guise of "polishing" or "improving" it or whatever), hence we see Sark as the opponent. YMMV, of course.

tronix lives Wrote:i thought you said you liked the film

I love the film.

But as I said before, you can love something while acknowleding its flaws. Sometimes discussing what you consider flaws with other people can be interesting, even enlightening. I think we're having one of those discussions now.

Byteman Wrote:Simply put, I think you have made too many assumptions. You might wanna go back and have a real good look at the first film again.

I have, thanks.

Byteman Wrote:Programs had intelligence, and even emotion before Flynn ever got digitized. His back and forth with CLU1 should have made that obvious. When Tron communicates with Allen at the IO tower, that should have been a second clue that programs and users talk to each other like two people. Tron, and other programs belief in the Users existed before Flynn digitized. Believing, or not believing in something takes intelligence.

The only time we actually see a User carrying on an actual back-and-forth conversation with a program in the real world are the exchanges between Dillinger and the MCP. When Flynn communicates with Clu, we see him typing commands into his computer... and then we cut to Clu's POV, where he "hears" those commands as verbal instructions from his User. The same is true when Alan embeds the code required to bring down the MCP in Tron's disc. It's all about how receiving instructions might look from the perspective of a program, if programs were living beings. Anthropomorphism and metaphors, not literal reality.

Byteman Wrote:Their "humanoid" form is likewise present before Flynn arrives. Proven by the Lightcycle race, and, again...CLU1. These are not metaphorical forms, they are genuine forms in a simulation world. Flynn even knows that CLU1 is in a tank.

A simulated world?

In an arcade cabinet, circa 1982?

Really?
That alone introduces so many plausibility issues, it makes the mind boggle. And the fact that the visual metaphor for programs within the computer are people covered in glowing circuit traces doesn't have anything to do with when Flynn's digitized. That's what they look like "from the inside", and that's what Flynn sees when he's on the inside.

Byteman Wrote:The light-cycle arcade machine has a picture of the MCP "armored cylinder" on it. That alone is proof that the computer world is a "space" filled with "things" that someone designed and not just a metaphorical interpretation of something the Human mind was making sense of. After all someone drew the thing and slapped it on an arcade before Flynn ever got there.

I'm inclined to write off the cabinet art as one of those minor continuity errors introduced by the prop department, tbh. I think what they used for that scene was the cabinet of the Tron coin-op, the one Midway released as a movie tie-in. (Either that, or the cab art was based on the quick glimpse we get of the Light Cycles coin-op at the start of the movie.)

In any case, it seems you're suggesting that Encom's programmers somehow created a simulated digital universe filled with complex 3D models, and someone there saw these visuals before Flynn was ever digitized and painted a likeness of them for the Light Cycles coin-op. Sorry, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence in the film to support your interpretation of events.

Byteman Wrote:Flynn wasn't surprised at how the computer world looked, he was only surprised that he was actually there at all.

He seemed pretty surprised to me. I didn't see him commenting on the familiarity of things there, or instantly recognizing things besides programs that looked like people he knew in the real world (Tron, Yori) or objects from games he designed (lightcycles, Recognizers, etc.)

Byteman Wrote: Even the MCP knew that Flynn would arrive in a "place" in the computer world if he digitized him.

Of course, but what does that really mean? A "place" in a computer is just a range of memory addresses. Flynn would still occupy a particular "place" within the Encom mainframe regardless of whether it was a Matrix-style sim or an ordinary computer.

Byteman Wrote: BTW...IIRC, there is nothing in canon that tells us how powerful the Encom hardware really was, and how it translates into real world computing. The digitizing lasers, and advanced touchscreens should be a big clue that in the TRON universe they are ahead of the real technology of the 1980's.

If computing hardware in the Troniverse was supposed to be so powerful that even arcade games like Light Cycles host virtual universes populated by fully-sentient AI constructs, the rest of the world would have been unrecognizable to us. Technology has implications, you know? Since we see programs "inside" the Light Cycles game, there are two possibilities - either even the most mundane computer in that world is supposed to have processing power far in excess of anything we know today, or they're just regular computers and videogames and there's another explanation for what we're seeing - like this "digital world" being a metaphorical representation of what's going on inside our computers.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a lot more plausible than megacomputers not only existing in the early 80's, being so commonplace that they're used for even the most mundane tasks. That's a premise which raises far more questions than it answers. (Like who in their right mind would create self-aware AI's just to use them as enemies in a simple arcade game, for starters.)

Byteman Wrote: I'd rather stick to presented facts.

Fact, the digitizing Laser takes physical information, turns it into digital information, and stores it or transfers it to a hardware system (the Grid's). It can also take a digital information and turn it into something physical.

Alright, I'm with you so far.

Byteman Wrote:Fact, programs in the Tron universe are complex enough to survive in the real world. Both Grids had simulations of the real world that programs had to subject themselves to. In the first movie, it was the Solar Sailor Simulator, and the Sea of simulation environment. Possibly the whole world at large, since we do see clouds present. In Legacy it was definitely the entire Grid.

Those aren't facts, though. Those are assumptions, and I don't feel there's a lot to support them, especially in the first movie.

For one thing been using computer-aided design to create virtual models of things and simulate how they'd perform in the real world for decades. Airplanes, cars, spacecraft, you name it. That doesn't mean that these objects are modeled down to the atomic level - far from it. We couldn't model something like a car to that degree of detail even if we had a reason to, and there are vanishing few real world cases where we ever would have reason to.

Byteman Wrote:Since programs have an actual form,

You assume that they do. (And by "actual form", I'm taking it to mean you think they exist as simulated molecular templates, similar to the ones you'd get by scanning someone with the digitizing laser.) I see no evidence of that, and I don't think it would make much sense if they did. Even if I allow for the possibility of a virtual universe running sentient AI's, simulating the environment there down to the atomic level would require astronomical amounts of processing power for negligible returns. It's like assuming that because the cars in Gran Turismo look and handle realistically, the game is secretly calculating things down to the position of each individual atom while you're playing, or that you could export those cars via the digitizing laser and end up with actual drivable vehicles.

Byteman Wrote: and it can survive simulated real world conditions, then they can go into the real world. Just like a Human has an actual form, and can survive in real world conditions, can go into the simulated Grid.

A simulated object is just a representation of something that does, or can, exist. If it can survive under simulated conditions, it means that the real object it corresponds to would be able to survive under the corresponding conditions in the real world. It's not an atomic blueprint for making that object.

Byteman Wrote: I actually had a problem with this as well. It was so quick, and they don't really say why.

My idea is that CLU2 does in fact have some of Flynn's "essence" or whatever you wanna call it...for the purpose of commanding the Grid. Something that grew during his thousands of years (grid-time) of ruling the Grid into something independent. Upon reintegration, Flynn simply couldn't contain the both himself and the (now) independent and fully realized essence of CLU2.

I don't have much to support this, except maybe CLU2 initial lifelessness, and his later passion for conquest. Just my own idea.

Another one of those "riddles of the Grid... Grid... Grid...", as Castor would say. I'd kill for a look at Starlight Runner's mythology bible for T: L. I imagine we'd find a lot of answers for these questions there. (Or maybe not, but I can hope.) At the very least, I'd be interested in seeing what it has to say about some of these things.

Byteman Wrote: What does it mean?

It's really too much for this topic. But to try and at least list one point. It would prove an intelligence outside of mankind. The written programs are still from man, they aren't "alien" like the ISO's.

How huge is completely alien intelligence to you?

I can definitely see the significance of the ISOs in the abstract. They're something that would be huge to me personally - I'm intrigued by the idea of humans encountering nonhuman intelligence, computer or otherwise. But Flynn alludes to the ISO's reshaping the human condition without ever getting into the particulars of how. What, specifically, will they mean for humanity?

If you're interested in starting a speculation thread on that, I say go for it. Sounds like an interesting topic to discuss.

Byteman Wrote:All that real world stuff Sam did, was to show the audience that he is an athletic risk taker. That way they don't sit there and wonder how some kid is instantly so good at jumping light cycles, and parachuting like it's nothing in the computer world. Or leaping from disc-war box to box.

Sam gets plenty of time to shine.
You are just dead-set on discrediting and minimizing them all.

You're painting me as deliberately adversarial here, when that's hardly the case. I'm not "discrediting and minimizing" anything. Let me put this as bluntly as possible.

He's the protagonist, the guy I'm supposed to be pulling for. And I was.

I wanted to see him kick some ass.
To go into a fight and come out decisively on top. Not just "survive". Not just hold his own until someone else could come along to bail him out. To show that he can get the job done on his own. And a moment like that was planned, at a point in the movie I felt was dramatically appropriate, but it never ended up being filmed. And that was disappointing to me, because I felt that the movie would have been that much better for it. If squeezing it in would have meant trimming some of the BASE-jumping stuff, I wouldn't have had a problem with that. I didn't feel the film needed to justify Sam's athletic ability onscreen for me to take him seriously as a hero, and I'd rather have seen that battle play out onscreen as the culmination of his character arc.


Byteman Wrote:Appearing at the last moment and saving the day, would have ruined (and possibly prevented) Flynn's sacrificing himself for his son.

They could still have had Flynn sacrifice himself at the end, if that's the direction they wanted to go in. I just wanted to see Tron have a role to play at the climax. Even if it was something like Clu's carrier arriving at the portal while Flynn and Clu are trading dialogue, and the redeemed Tron showing up (sans helmet) to hold the bridge against the advancing legions of conscripts marching toward the portal while Flynn and Clu go at it, I'd've been more than satisfied. (Hell, I'd've been thrilled beyond belief.) It's sad to think that the last time Flynn gets to see Tron before dying is in his guise as Rinzler.


Byteman Wrote:It's a movie. Relax guy..gal?

I was pretty relaxed, last time I checked. I just enjoy discussing this stuff.


 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Monday, February, 28, 2011 12:03 AM
LWSrocks Wrote:-------
About the games. One thing that can't be explained is the scene where that one kid at the arcade is playing light cycles, and see Sark.
------------------------------
Argent wrote-----------
I think those shots were meant to establish that a digital universe exists inside every piece of computing hardware, from corporate mainframes down to arcade games
---------------------------

i like your interpretation. it echoes flynn's comment "our worlds are more connected
than anyone thought"

for the purposes of friendly discussion i would also like to put this to the table:

the implied network connection between an arcade machine
and sark was the hard part to explain - because later on we see
sark reporting to the MCP about the game - where the MCP
comments on sark's brutality.

i dont remember circa 1980 arcade games being networked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcade_game

fortunately upon further research we can now offer
another possible explanation. (non-canon of course)

http://www.thehightechstore.com/electricinternet.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication
of particular interest is the
Internet access (broadband over powerlines) section

and the patent for the technology was in 1971
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=7567154

then we can attribute the intelligence of how
to implement the network of encom arcade games
to the MCP:

dillinger: now wait a minute i wrote you.
MCP: i've gotten 2,415 times smarter since then.

btw, Argent i'd like to ask permission to re-post
just my posts about this network connection of arcade
games to my "nailing down the rules thread"

i wont use the other comments. just my comments on
one possible explanation for arcade game network connection.


I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
Argent
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Posts: 274
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Monday, February, 28, 2011 12:12 AM
You don't need my permission for that, rimwall. I don't know what the rules here are with regard to cross-posting (if any), but as far as my personal feelings go, you should feel free to post anything to your thread that you feel is relevant to the discussion there.


 
IsoLine
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Posts: 1,025
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Monday, February, 28, 2011 12:13 AM
rimwall Wrote:LWSrocks Wrote:-------
About the games. One thing that can't be explained is the scene where that one kid at the arcade is playing light cycles, and see Sark.
------------------------------
Argent wrote-----------
I think those shots were meant to establish that a digital universe exists inside every piece of computing hardware, from corporate mainframes down to arcade games
---------------------------

i like your interpretation. it echoes flynn's comment "our worlds are more connected
than anyone thought"

for the purposes of friendly discussion i would also like to put this to the table:

the implied network connection between an arcade machine
and sark was the hard part to explain - because later on we see
sark reporting to the MCP about the game - where the MCP
comments on sark's brutality.

i dont remember circa 1980 arcade games being networked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcade_game

fortunately upon further research we can now offer
another possible explanation. (non-canon of course)

http://www.thehightechstore.com/electricinternet.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication
of particular interest is the
Internet access (broadband over powerlines) section

and the patent for the technology was in 1971
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=7567154

then we can attribute the intelligence of how
to implement the network of encom arcade games
to the MCP:

dillinger: now wait a minute i wrote you.
MCP: i've gotten 2,415 times smarter since then.

btw, Argent i'd like to ask permission to re-post
just my posts about this network connection of arcade
games to my "nailing down the rules thread"

i wont use the other comments. just my comments on
one possible explanation for arcade game network connection.

I mentioned the theoretical use of this technique by the MCP in a long gone thread about this same subject. The MCP was a smart cookie, so I think he could have found any number of ways to get Sark into an arcade game.where to buy abortion pill http://blog.bitimpulse.com/template/default.aspx?abortion-types buy abortion pill online

"Word to the Motherboard!" - IsoLine
 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Monday, February, 28, 2011 12:38 AM
Argent Wrote:You don't need my permission for that, rimwall. I don't know what the rules here are with regard to cross-posting (if any), but as far as my personal feelings go, you should feel free to post anything to your thread that you feel is relevant to the discussion there.

thanks Argent

I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Monday, February, 28, 2011 12:40 AM
IsoLine Wrote:I mentioned the theoretical use of this technique by the MCP in a long gone thread about this same subject. The MCP was a smart cookie, so I think he could have found any number of ways to get Sark into an arcade game.

if you could kindly provide a link to the thread. i would appreciate it

i would like to ask your permission IsoLine to post this idea
to my "nailing down the rules thread"

on the off-chance the thread link is not in the archives then
i will still attribute the original idea to you IsoLine - if you
can give the go ahead for me to post it to the "nailing the rules thread"


I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
IsoLine
User

Posts: 1,025
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Monday, February, 28, 2011 1:01 AM
rimwall Wrote:
IsoLine Wrote:I mentioned the theoretical use of this technique by the MCP in a long gone thread about this same subject. The MCP was a smart cookie, so I think he could have found any number of ways to get Sark into an arcade game.

if you could kindly provide a link to the thread. i would appreciate it

i would like to ask your permission IsoLine to post this idea
to my "nailing down the rules thread"

on the off-chance the thread link is not in the archives then
i will still attribute the original idea to you IsoLine - if you
can give the go ahead for me to post it to the "nailing the rules thread"

Oh my God....If i can look for it later, that would be much appreciated LOL...It was before the new movie came out, that is part of when I remember. I don't really need credit for the idea, but we had the same conversation back then about the dichotomy of Sark being in the video game and then showing up in the Encom mainframe. I don't mind if you post the concept to the "nailing the rules thread".

"Word to the Motherboard!" - IsoLine
 
rimwall
User

Posts: 507
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Monday, February, 28, 2011 2:17 AM
IsoLine Wrote:
rimwall Wrote:
IsoLine Wrote:I mentioned the theoretical use of this technique by the MCP in a long gone thread about this same subject. The MCP was a smart cookie, so I think he could have found any number of ways to get Sark into an arcade game.

if you could kindly provide a link to the thread. i would appreciate it

i would like to ask your permission IsoLine to post this idea
to my "nailing down the rules thread"

on the off-chance the thread link is not in the archives then
i will still attribute the original idea to you IsoLine - if you
can give the go ahead for me to post it to the "nailing the rules thread"

Oh my God....If i can look for it later, that would be much appreciated LOL...It was before the new movie came out, that is part of when I remember. I don't really need credit for the idea, but we had the same conversation back then about the dichotomy of Sark being in the video game and then showing up in the Encom mainframe. I don't mind if you post the concept to the "nailing the rules thread".


thanks IsoLine where to buy abortion pill http://blog.bitimpulse.com/template/default.aspx?abortion-types buy abortion pill onlineabortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion

I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
rimwall
User

Posts: 507
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Monday, February, 28, 2011 2:17 AM
opps double post

I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,389
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Monday, February, 28, 2011 6:54 AM
Byteman Wrote:I'd rather stick to presented facts.

Fact, the digitizing Laser takes physical information, turns it into digital information, and stores it or transfers it to a hardware system (the Grid's). It can also take a digital information and turn it into something physical.

Fact, programs in the Tron universe are complex enough to survive in the real world. Both Grids had simulations of the real world that programs had to subject themselves to. In the first movie, it was the Solar Sailor Simulator, and the Sea of simulation environment. Possibly the whole world at large, since we do see clouds present. In Legacy it was definitely the entire Grid.

Since programs have an actual form, and it can survive simulated real world conditions, then they can go into the real world. Just like a Human has an actual form, and can survive in real world conditions, can go into the simulated Grid.
Real world conditions? Really? First time a program came out and had to confront taxicab-crowded streets, got a sunburn, encountered the police, met an angry dog, heard a screaming child, and gashed themselves on something and gushed blood, they'd wonder what the hell sort of world they'd come to...and that's just a small representation of all the things in the real world that are NOTHING like the Grid(s) that a program wouldn't know how to deal with...
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What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Gnoop
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Posts: 54
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Tuesday, March, 01, 2011 2:11 AM
RenegadeProgram Wrote:I started reading through some of Argent's critique, and I think that some of you are missing a very basic fundamental difference between TRON and TRON: LEGACY which was spelled out several times by Joe Kosinski in interviews before Legacy came out, on several websites - the "grid" in TRON was not the grid in TRON: LEGACY. They are two different servers: The digital environment in TRON was inside the ENCOM 511; the digital environment inside of TRON: LEGACY was a secret server Flynn built in the basement of his arcade. Also, the programs in TRON all had users, and some dialogue by RAM clearly states that all types of programs were being snatched up by the MCP to play games on the game grid, if the MCP found them useful. The programs in TRON: LEGACY were more like SIMS, in that they were all created by Kevin Flynn's programming, except for the ISOS who just came to be due to a glitch in the system. So basically, all the programs in Legacy, except for the ISOS, had ONE user, Flynn himself. Also, the world inside the ENCOM 511, was just referred to collectively as THE SYSTEM, where as the collective environment inside Flynn's private server was collectively called THE GRID.

The ones on The Grid are not simulations. Merely programs written by a single programmer. We've assumed Kevin used some kind of mechanism such that all programs did not look like Kevin.

Also, while it was implied that the ENCOM 511 had an early version of internet access (maybe bulletin board type of access, since the internet wouldn't officially appear until years later), Flynn's secret server in TL did not have any internet access - it developed on its own, much like the Galapagos Islands, due to Flynn's repeated entries and exits into the GRID, until of course, he was trapped inside. Each time Flynn went in he helped develop his virtual world even more, programming modifications, and it's implied that there was some coding that took care of programming the changes itself.

Not sure it was implied that there was internet access. It sounds like you're referring to the MCP hitting up various corporations and eying governments to steal their programs. In 1982 this would really be unlikely. More likely was dial-up via modem which was what we saw Flynn doing from his place when he hacks in. The internet, at this point, is primarily governments and universities.

I'll read the rest of Argent's critique. While TRON: Legacy was not a perfect film, and while there were some things I didn't like about it, I think way too many people are forgetting the two different servers fact of the first film and this film, especially after the director and producer, Joe Kosinski and Sean Bailey, went to GREAT pains to explain this before and after the movie came out.

I think we understand that they're different systems. The problems become more basic than that. Programs interact relatively the same regardless of the OS or system they're on. Saying they're different systems is really insignificant to how they interact. The differences in the systems of 7 years may or may not be that huge. Consider that even though we're 7 years newer, we're looking at Encom's main server vs. some smaller deal Kevin's got in his arcade. Kevin's is likely more powerful but not necessarily by all that much.



 
EXODUS
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Posts: 573
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Tuesday, March, 08, 2011 4:56 AM
The thing is, I've noticed this happens quite a lot with hugely popular stories like this.

It's what I call DAN BROWN SYNDROME.

And what I mean by DAN BROWN SYNDROME is that, when you read his books (or watch the films) they are full of plotholes & inconsistances, and yet for many people they're still really good stories.
Has a general rule, when it comes to stories like this, I tend not to dwell TOO much on the flaws & weaknesses of the plot, and prefer just to sit back & enjoy the ride. on line abortion pill misoprostol dose abortion medical abortion pill onlinewhere to buy abortion pill abortion types buy abortion pill online


 
Kat
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Posts: 2,389
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Tuesday, March, 08, 2011 7:13 AM
EXODUS Wrote:The thing is, I've noticed this happens quite a lot with hugely popular stories like this.

It's what I call DAN BROWN SYNDROME.

And what I mean by DAN BROWN SYNDROME is that, when you read his books (or watch the films) they are full of plotholes & inconsistances, and yet for many people they're still really good stories.
Has a general rule, when it comes to stories like this, I tend not to dwell TOO much on the flaws & weaknesses of the plot, and prefer just to sit back & enjoy the ride.
OMG! He could do the next.... oh, no, not going there, too painful.

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Byteman
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Posts: 83
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Tuesday, March, 08, 2011 5:58 PM
Argent Wrote:The only time we actually see a User carrying on an actual back-and-forth conversation with a program in the real world are the exchanges between Dillinger and the MCP. When Flynn communicates with Clu, we see him typing commands into his computer... and then we cut to Clu's POV, where he "hears" those commands as verbal instructions from his User. The same is true when Alan embeds the code required to bring down the MCP in Tron's disc. It's all about how receiving instructions might look from the perspective of a program, if programs were living beings. Anthropomorphism and metaphors, not literal reality.

During the Clu sequence, we clearly hear Flynn and Clu converse back and forth. Flynn is typing and Clu is hearing it, Clu is talking and Flynn sees it as typing. There was nothing metaphorical about it, Flynn was really typing stuff like "You are dogged and relentless" "Keep that tank rolling".

Tell you what, why don't you explain what command "You are dogged and relentless" is supposed to metaphorically represent?

LOAD"ENCOURAGEMENT",8,1

Probably not.

A simulated world?

In an arcade cabinet, circa 1982?

Really?
That alone introduces so many plausibility issues, it makes the mind boggle. And the fact that the visual metaphor for programs within the computer are people covered in glowing circuit traces doesn't have anything to do with when Flynn's digitized. That's what they look like "from the inside", and that's what Flynn sees when he's on the inside.

I never said the computer world was in one arcade cabinet.

It's not the real world, using real 1980's tech as a yardstick isn't applicable.

Actually it's what anyone would have seen from the inside...not just Flynn.

I'm inclined to write off the cabinet art as one of those minor continuity errors introduced by the prop department, tbh. I think what they used for that scene was the cabinet of the Tron coin-op, the one Midway released as a movie tie-in. (Either that, or the cab art was based on the quick glimpse we get of the Light Cycles coin-op at the start of the movie.)

In any case, it seems you're suggesting that Encom's programmers somehow created a simulated digital universe filled with complex 3D models, and someone there saw these visuals before Flynn was ever digitized and painted a likeness of them for the Light Cycles coin-op. Sorry, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence in the film to support your interpretation of events.

How convenient for you, you just get to write-off evidence that proves your whole metaphorical/mind-projection argument dead-wrong.

The Space Paranoid machine, and gameplay proves my point. Likewise, every single scene of the computer world, before Flynn arrives, just puts more evidence in my camp. There was no-one in the computer to "project" the programs into a "dimensional" being in those cases.

He seemed pretty surprised to me. I didn't see him commenting on the familiarity of things there, or instantly recognizing things besides programs that looked like people he knew in the real world (Tron, Yori) or objects from games he designed (lightcycles, Recognizers, etc.)

His very first comment wasn't "Where am I?", it was "This isn't happening, it only thinks it is". This is a sign of skepticism, not curiosity. He knew MCP put him on the game grid, just like the MCP told him it would...he just had trouble believing that the MCP could do that.

Of course, but what does that really mean? A "place" in a computer is just a range of memory addresses. Flynn would still occupy a particular "place" within the Encom mainframe regardless of whether it was a Matrix-style sim or an ordinary computer.

It means that the Game-grid existed as an internal cyberspace structure, before Flynn got there. The MCP threatened to put him on the Game-grid, and it did. It threatened to put him in a place that you claim couldn't even exist until Flynn got there, because of your totally unproven "it's all an interpretation from Flynn's head argument".

If computing hardware in the Troniverse was supposed to be so powerful that even arcade games like Light Cycles host virtual universes populated by fully-sentient AI constructs, the rest of the world would have been unrecognizable to us. Technology has implications, you know? Since we see programs "inside" the Light Cycles game, there are two possibilities - either even the most mundane computer in that world is supposed to have processing power far in excess of anything we know today, or they're just regular computers and videogames and there's another explanation for what we're seeing - like this "digital world" being a metaphorical representation of what's going on inside our computers.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a lot more plausible than megacomputers not only existing in the early 80's, being so commonplace that they're used for even the most mundane tasks. That's a premise which raises far more questions than it answers. (Like who in their right mind would create self-aware AI's just to use them as enemies in a simple arcade game, for starters.)

I said that the technology in the Tron world is not 1:1 with reality and tech seen on-screen beats what we had in the real 80's. Please refrain from exaggerating that statement. As far as I saw, the arcade machine was host to TWO programs fighting each other in a Lightcycle arena. One was Sark. BTW, this proves that Tron universe arcade machines are either networked with the MCP, or direct terminals.

Since they were able to digitize and store the information of a whole Human being, including memories, something we cannot do today. Then yes, it is BLATANTLY obvious that Tron universe tech is FAR FAR ahead of what we had in the 80's, and probably even today.

You only find your "metaphor" solution more palatable because it's YOUR idea. You don't want to admit that your "this is what real technology is like, and those limits are imposed upon a fantasy world argument" is invalid.

Your argument is like saying, the Muppets cannot be "real" (within the muppet universe), because real frogs and bears don't talk.

Those aren't facts, though. Those are assumptions, and I don't feel there's a lot to support them, especially in the first movie.

For one thing been using computer-aided design to create virtual models of things and simulate how they'd perform in the real world for decades. Airplanes, cars, spacecraft, you name it. That doesn't mean that these objects are modeled down to the atomic level - far from it. We couldn't model something like a car to that degree of detail even if we had a reason to, and there are vanishing few real world cases where we ever would have reason to.

Yeah, first of all..your whole "it's just a metaphor world" argument is a HUGE assumption. There is NOTHING on screen in the movie that says "The digital world is just a psychological metaphorical projection of data, by a Human consciousness in cyberspace" or anything like it, so it's not only an assumption...it's based on NOTHING within the movies themselves. You have no place trying to criticize others for using assumptions. Second, what I said is not an assumption...everything I conclude is based on what I see in the movie.

Anyways, the fact that there are clouds, gravity, water, pressure, even Solar winds. Proves that the first Tron world simulates the reality in many ways.

Also, you are trying to limit a fantasy-world to real world limits again. The fact is, in the Tron world if they can store an Orange, they can program for atomic or perhaps subatomic structures. After all, they figured out the "language" to translate it from organic matter to digitized information. Our real life inability to do this is irrelevant.

You assume that they do. (And by "actual form", I'm taking it to mean you think they exist as simulated molecular templates, similar to the ones you'd get by scanning someone with the digitizing laser.) I see no evidence of that, and I don't think it would make much sense if they did. Even if I allow for the possibility of a virtual universe running sentient AI's, simulating the environment there down to the atomic level would require astronomical amounts of processing power for negligible returns. It's like assuming that because the cars in Gran Turismo look and handle realistically, the game is secretly calculating things down to the position of each individual atom while you're playing, or that you could export those cars via the digitizing laser and end up with actual drivable vehicles.

The programs can directly interact with Flynn in the computer world, that means they are an equivalent form where it counts. What was that show, a guy says "A difference, that makes no difference, is no difference". That applies here. Just because the programs were programmed, and the user is digitized from organic matter, doesn't mean they both cannot survive in both the real world and the Tron world.

If you allow?
You have no choice. It's a fantasy world, they obviously have MUCH better tech then we did and still do in some ways.

It's funny, you can accept that they have an advanced AI, and can digitize a Human into the computer world...however you choose to interpret that. But you cannot accept that they may have superior hardware or programming techniques.

What if I told you that Bit, shows signs of being a Qubit. Interestingly enough, about a decade before anyone proposed such a thing in the real world.

A simulated object is just a representation of something that does, or can, exist. If it can survive under simulated conditions, it means that the real object it corresponds to would be able to survive under the corresponding conditions in the real world. It's not an atomic blueprint for making that object.

Yes, that is what it means in reality.
In the Tron world, they can take a digitally stored structure and make it real.

You think it matters that the orange was real in the first place? It does not.
If they can perfectly express organics as digital information, then they can also "make" something from scratch digitally and make it organic.

As far as this computer power argument you keep bringing up, they had enough storage space for the pattern and memories of a whole Human being down to his subatomic particles and their positions. Do I even need to explain that we don't have that much computing power in the real world...right now?

Sure, we could store a whole gene sequence. But we cannot store the position of every single particle in a body, or a lifetime of memories. They can in the Tron world, you are just in denial about the obvious levels of technology they demonstrated.

Just to drive my point home...
The Human brain is estimated to hold anywhere from 500 Terabytes to 1000 Terabytes, if every neuron operates as a single bit. If the brain stores information on the molecular level then it rises to 3.6 x 10 to the 19th power bytes. A smart guy like Flynn would probably be on the high side of those figures, and he got stored no problem.

Just one single DNA molecule is about 750mb of data, when expressed as the letters GTCA.
How many DNA molecules does the Human body contain?

Care to guess if we could actually do that in the 1980's?

Another one of those "riddles of the Grid... Grid... Grid...", as Castor would say. I'd kill for a look at Starlight Runner's mythology bible for T: L. I imagine we'd find a lot of answers for these questions there. (Or maybe not, but I can hope.) At the very least, I'd be interested in seeing what it has to say about some of these things.

I guess simple curiosity has me, but really would it be genuine?

I can definitely see the significance of the ISOs in the abstract. They're something that would be huge to me personally - I'm intrigued by the idea of humans encountering nonhuman intelligence, computer or otherwise. But Flynn alludes to the ISO's reshaping the human condition without ever getting into the particulars of how. What, specifically, will they mean for humanity?

If you're interested in starting a speculation thread on that, I say go for it. Sounds like an interesting topic to discuss.

Quorra did not age, Flynn did.
Both can survive in the real world.
This implies that ISO's could give Humanity immortality.

Again though, the ISO's themselves. A whole topic, easily.

You're painting me as deliberately adversarial here, when that's hardly the case. I'm not "discrediting and minimizing" anything. Let me put this as bluntly as possible.

He's the protagonist, the guy I'm supposed to be pulling for. And I was.

I wanted to see him kick some ass.
To go into a fight and come out decisively on top. Not just "survive". Not just hold his own until someone else could come along to bail him out. To show that he can get the job done on his own. And a moment like that was planned, at a point in the movie I felt was dramatically appropriate, but it never ended up being filmed. And that was disappointing to me, because I felt that the movie would have been that much better for it. If squeezing it in would have meant trimming some of the BASE-jumping stuff, I wouldn't have had a problem with that. I didn't feel the film needed to justify Sam's athletic ability onscreen for me to take him seriously as a hero, and I'd rather have seen that battle play out onscreen as the culmination of his character arc.

Foreshadowing his athleticism makes his efforts on The Grid more believable for the general audience. Whether or not you prefer using that time otherwise, that is the reason. Sam gets plenty of time to shine, not only with his decisive victory over Encom and it's OS12 release, his disc war battles (except Rinzler, well...Rinzler didn't kill him so that's gotta be worth something), and his rescue of Quorra in The Rectifier.

Also, I think you are confusing protagonist and hero. Most of the time, they turn out to be the same thing...but it's not so cut and dry with the Tron movies.

For instance, whose the hero in Tron...Kevin Flynn or Tron?
Kevin Flynn distracts the MCP by sacrificing himself and jumping in, but Tron wins it by actually destroying the MCP with his disc.

Whose the hero in Legacy...Sam, Quorra, or Flynn?
Why do you think Sam should be the protagonist and hero in Legacy?
What about Quorra constantly rescuing him, doesn't that make her the hero?
What about Kevin Flynn's sacrifice at the end?

They could still have had Flynn sacrifice himself at the end, if that's the direction they wanted to go in. I just wanted to see Tron have a role to play at the climax. Even if it was something like Clu's carrier arriving at the portal while Flynn and Clu are trading dialogue, and the redeemed Tron showing up (sans helmet) to hold the bridge against the advancing legions of conscripts marching toward the portal while Flynn and Clu go at it, I'd've been more than satisfied. (Hell, I'd've been thrilled beyond belief.) It's sad to think that the last time Flynn gets to see Tron before dying is in his guise as Rinzler.

If that happened, then I think Tron would definitely die when the explosion happens.







 
Byteman
User

Posts: 83
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Tuesday, March, 08, 2011 6:11 PM
Kat Wrote:
Byteman Wrote:I'd rather stick to presented facts.

Fact, the digitizing Laser takes physical information, turns it into digital information, and stores it or transfers it to a hardware system (the Grid's). It can also take a digital information and turn it into something physical.

Fact, programs in the Tron universe are complex enough to survive in the real world. Both Grids had simulations of the real world that programs had to subject themselves to. In the first movie, it was the Solar Sailor Simulator, and the Sea of simulation environment. Possibly the whole world at large, since we do see clouds present. In Legacy it was definitely the entire Grid.

Since programs have an actual form, and it can survive simulated real world conditions, then they can go into the real world. Just like a Human has an actual form, and can survive in real world conditions, can go into the simulated Grid.
Real world conditions? Really? First time a program came out and had to confront taxicab-crowded streets, got a sunburn, encountered the police, met an angry dog, heard a screaming child, and gashed themselves on something and gushed blood, they'd wonder what the hell sort of world they'd come to...and that's just a small representation of all the things in the real world that are NOTHING like the Grid(s) that a program wouldn't know how to deal with...

A program couldn't survive because stuff is noisy and they might get a booboo?

Well, it's a good thing they don't have to fight for their lives in deadly combat in noisy arena's...oh wait a minute.

Anyways...

None of those "confusions" create gravity, or atmospheric pressure. They don't create oxygen or an active radiant EM environment or any other major environmental qualities. Nothing you listed has anything to do with whether or not conditions are right for survival. They aren't germaine to the environmental conditions I was clearly talking about.where to buy abortion pill ordering abortion pills to be shipped to house buy abortion pill online


 
ShadowDragon1
User

Posts: 2,056
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Tuesday, March, 08, 2011 6:44 PM
Magnificent posts Byteman!
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"The film is about finding human connection in an increasingly digital world." - Joseph Kosinski

 
CorrupTron
User

Posts: 609
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Tuesday, March, 08, 2011 6:54 PM
I agree with Kat. Heck, most people can't survive in the Real World. LOL It's a dog eat dog world out there... Better know how to play cuz the game has changed. LOL


 
Icon57
User

Posts: 150
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Tuesday, March, 08, 2011 7:08 PM
Byteman, I'm curious--why are you so resistant to the idea that the computer world, as seen by Flynn, isn't either a) an interpretation of the functions of a computer by the human consciousness or b) a metaphorical representation created as an aesthetic experiment?

You make a lot of assertions that you claim prove the movie to be literal, but they're conjectural. You claim that Flynn is actually typing "Get that tank rolling," but there's no support for it. If the picture is representative and metaphorical, an aesthetic experiment exploring the idea of computing, then those could easily be interpretations of commands to execute various functions and not dialogue between Clu and Kevin.

I do agree to an extent that the tech is not meant to be realistically representative of the technology available in 1982. It does kind of exist in a science-fiction parallel to our lived reality that allows for the commonality of things like networked arcade games. If you want to split hairs, though, there were networked games that existed not dissimilar to Space Paranoids even before the timeline of Tron, though they were uncommon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spasim.

I don't think that Argent is off the mark when he claims the arcade cabinet might be a goof on the part of the prop department. Tron was not and is not (in Legacy) a strong film when it comes to continuity. The editing was shifty. And Legacy has more plot holes than something with a lot of holes in it.

I do agree that in spite of whatever plausibility issues there are we need to accept the fact that programs, at least ISOs, are indeed complex enough to exist in the real world because it fucking happened in the movie.

The reason, I think, that ISOs are complex enough to exist in the real world while programs would not be--and here, I think, is the biggest issue with Clu2's plan and where I start agreeing with complaints about it--is that Flynn defines the isomorphs as a new form of life. They're sentient. Programs are limited; Clu2 and Flynn proved that in their dialogue at the end of Legacy. Given that I agree with Argent re: the grid (at least the original grid) being either representative of computing or illustrating how the human mind could interpret it, I don't think that a program like Ram would survive outside the grid.

Given that Flynn created the second grid as a testbed for all these new ideas and technologies, though, I find it plausible that the programs in Legacy are dramatically different and could possibly exist on their own in the real world.

Ergh. Legacy is different enough that the rules totally change from one movie to the next..order abortion pill http://unclejohnsprojects.com/template/default.aspx?morning-after-pill-price where to buy abortion pill

KEEP THE LEGACY ALIVE -- TR3N LIVES
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Kat
User

Posts: 2,389
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Tuesday, March, 08, 2011 9:40 PM
Icon57 Wrote:Flynn defines the isomorphs as a new form of life. They're sentient. Programs are limited; Clu2 and Flynn proved that in their dialogue at the end of Legacy.
But couldn't you just explain that as Clu being like one of those people who never gets over being immature/their mind never expands into critical thinking? I know people like that, and yes, you could describe them as "limited," but not in the way you're using here, I don't think.

Byteman Wrote:
Kat Wrote:
Byteman Wrote:I'd rather stick to presented facts.

Fact, the digitizing Laser takes physical information, turns it into digital information, and stores it or transfers it to a hardware system (the Grid's). It can also take a digital information and turn it into something physical.

Fact, programs in the Tron universe are complex enough to survive in the real world. Both Grids had simulations of the real world that programs had to subject themselves to. In the first movie, it was the Solar Sailor Simulator, and the Sea of simulation environment. Possibly the whole world at large, since we do see clouds present. In Legacy it was definitely the entire Grid.

Since programs have an actual form, and it can survive simulated real world conditions, then they can go into the real world. Just like a Human has an actual form, and can survive in real world conditions, can go into the simulated Grid.
Real world conditions? Really? First time a program came out and had to confront taxicab-crowded streets, got a sunburn, encountered the police, met an angry dog, heard a screaming child, and gashed themselves on something and gushed blood, they'd wonder what the hell sort of world they'd come to...and that's just a small representation of all the things in the real world that are NOTHING like the Grid(s) that a program wouldn't know how to deal with...

A program couldn't survive because stuff is noisy and they might get a booboo?

Well, it's a good thing they don't have to fight for their lives in deadly combat in noisy arena's...oh wait a minute.

Anyways...

None of those "confusions" create gravity, or atmospheric pressure. They don't create oxygen or an active radiant EM environment or any other major environmental qualities. Nothing you listed has anything to do with whether or not conditions are right for survival. They aren't germaine to the environmental conditions I was clearly talking about.
SOCIAL survival. Why do little kids need to be watched constantly? Because they know nothing about the world nor how to survive it. They don't know that you don't walk into traffic or grab running chainsaws or jump into campfires or drink bleach or go into the ghetto at 2 a.m. wearing a blingy Rolex. Neither would programs, because they have never experienced those things. By sheer dumb luck and some quick thinking, some programs could survive. Others would fall victim to the things that plenty of humans who DO know better still fall victim to. The point is that you're saying the Grid is enough of a real-world simulation that it teaches programs to survive the real world, and I'm saying it's nothing like the real world because there are a billion harmful things in the real world that programs know nothing about and therefore have not learned to survive. For heaven's sake, enough programs would walk onto a beach and get distracted enough by all the skin showing that you could walk up behind them and shove a knife through their gut before they got done gawking long enough to know you were there! The Grid is NOTHING like the real world.

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
CorrupTron
User

Posts: 609
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Tuesday, March, 08, 2011 9:44 PM
Exactly. Without Sam protecting her, Quorra would be raped by the wolves. abortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortion


 
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