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AriesT
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Posts: 171
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 4:28 AM
Most of those mentioned plot holes are explained in the movie somehow. Too bad some people do not have the intelligence to get it. Oo
Thats why it only got 87 on Rotten. Way too low. European critics rated Inception better.

I know this article for long but its not good at all. In fact, I read an interview which totally made clear how one have to see the ending. I don't want to spoiler.

And I really don't like it if you constantly say to people they did not like Legacy just because they have a more distant view on the film and saw those not-so-good-ideas comparing TRON and TRON Legacy...

Both movies had plot holes but Legacy had more... or lets say it had some bad story decisions.
Its the details which Legacy misses to explain further. Its not the inconsequence in Reality vs. Legacy which people argue about... Mostly it is the inconsequence in TRON vs. TRON Legacy which people did not like at all. That does not mean the style of the grid - since it also could have been NES graphics depending on the time it was build.
It's some of the rules set by TRON which were dismissed by Legacy. Thats the point.

For example take the ISOs again...
Instead of showing Flynn sitting on his pillow again on the solar sailor, they could have made him tell some more details about them and actually explain WHY they are so important since this question was not answered in the movie, afaim. So he could easily build up a better myth with only some more sentences and some more grid-logic, since he _IS_ the creator and the admin of the grid.

Why not showing a sequence in which Flynn actually writes some ASCII-Code for the grid and then showing how huge buildings rise up from the grid?
That should have done it.


Look at Inception again. They build up a fascinating myth with all the rules and consequences in the explaination sequence. With only some sentences and visuals - all in 10 minutes. Legacy missed that point when explaining the grid just a bit but not entirely and then missing unanswered questions...


 
AriesT
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Posts: 171
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 4:54 AM
As you read the article, you will notice following sentence:

"As for Inception plot holes...

I don't think there are any. But that's because I think everything is a dream and thus any inconsistencies can be chalked up to everything being an imperfect impersonation of reality."

1. Gravity:
I'm one of the "the end is real" people and though the stated plot holes are none. As this author states, everything is explained in the movie. And he actually tells the lines explaining ... e.g. the gravity issue.

2. Limbo.
One life in Limbo is only an hour in reality or something. Saito is like some minutes longer in the Limbo like Cobb. Problem solved.

3.First time limbo.
Author explaines.

4. Wake up from limbo
Die in Limbo but the mind can be disoriented since you do not know what is real and what is Limbo (Mal and window)

5. Saito and Fisher
I don't have the movie in my mind as good as answering this question.

Makes 1 not-explained point and / or 1 plot hole.

However...
You fail at this point, I'm sorry.



 
AriesT
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Posts: 171
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 5:07 AM
LWSrocks Wrote:I see so many people, including yourself, complaining that Legacy was a smudge on the franchise due to the various plot holes of Legacy.

In fact, the many plot holes of the original are close to ignored by this entire forum, whereas the plot holes of Legacy are scrutinized multiple times daily. And that's my point, not that "inception had plot holes".

See, again! I never wrote I do not like Legacy and it is a shame for the franchise, neither did Argent and any other fan here. You always call people shit which state the negative points of Legacy. Be realistic, dude!

True, TRON had plot holes... but this movie is 28 years older than Legacy -> which still runs in theatres. where to buy abortion pill http://blog.bitimpulse.com/template/default.aspx?abortion-types buy abortion pill online


 
nonoperative
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Posts: 123
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 5:15 AM
and somebodty had a problem with the length of my meditation thread ...PALEASE......


 
Argent
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Posts: 274
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 5:28 AM
Thanks for all the replies, everyone!

Vinz Wrote:I don't mean to just be "Oh, I like how you said this, and I agree with that" but like I said, I have very similar thoughts on this topic. I really like TRON, and I really like Legacy, but not exactly for the same reasons.

No worries, Vinz. I'm just glad there are other people out there who don't think I'm totally off-base with this stuff.

Gridlord Wrote:Generally, most people who saw the original Tron in theaters in 1982 and loved it agree with most of your opinions including myself. If you look int the Tron 2.0 forums you see a lot of comments about Tron 2.0 feeling more like a sequel to Tron than Legacy was.

I haven't visited there yet, but I have to agree with them 100%. Tron 2.0 was a shining example of how to update the franchise for the Internet era without sacrificing the spirit of the first movie. That's why I found it odd to hear someone (can't recall if it was Kosinski or Kitsis and Horowitz) say in an interview that they didn't want to tackle the Internet in Legacy because the movie would quickly end up feeling dated. After playing through Tron 2.0 again during the run-up to the release of Legacy, I have to say that it still seems relevant now, even though it was released back in 2003. We still have PC's, firewalls, and PDA's with wi-fi connections today, and I imagine none of that's going to change drastically any time soon.

Gridlord Wrote:Another thing I'm surprised you didn't mention that bothered me was the fact that you could age in the computer. I don't feel a person should age in the system myself.

That's something that bothered me too, but considering how long my post already was, I decided to skip it for brevity's sake. I agree, though — there's no reason why Flynn should have aged while trapped on the Grid. It was another of those incongruous elements that made me wonder if the Legacy script had begun life as a movie about someone trapped in some kind of Matrix-style VR world for decades, unable to log out while their real body (and its real-time virtual reflection) grows older.

Gridlord Wrote:Regarding why the ISO's were a gift to the world, you were right, the writers didn't know either. I read an interview where they were asked what made the ISO's special and they basically said it was for the viewer to determine. Not figure out, but determine their own ideas about the ISO's.

That... is pretty sloppy scriptwriting, as far as I'm concerned.

ShadowDragon1 Wrote: I've been a hardcore fan of Tron for 28 yrs, and have seen Tron Legacy 5 times.

ok now many of your points have been gone over in past threads. I really don't like repeating information I wrote already. But here, I'll go over it again, for the fifth time....

I posted this because I wanted to nail down the specifics of my thoughts (which writing this helped me to do), and get some feedback from other fans. I only recently registered here, and it sounds like I missed out on a lot of interesting discussions. : / Sorry if you feel like you're repeating yourself, and I do appreciate you taking the time to respond like this.

ShadowDragon1 Wrote:I surmise that the MCP is an A.I. and that the Programs within the Encom system evovled and gained semi-sentience possibly due to process by which the MCP aquired them and those Programs presense within the Encom system. The whole system became type of cyber space domain running all manner of simulations, contructs of code. (The Matrix EMPLICTLY ripped off this very concept) Steve Lisberger and a few others bitrthing cyber punk sci-fi ideas in the later 70's thought of these concepts long before The Matrix and were a part of Tron. Steve Lisberger has implied such before.)

I feel the same way about the MCP. We saw it having conversations with both Dillinger and Flynn in the real world, and it seemed very much self-aware. I believe it kept growing in complexity thanks to all the code it was grafting into itself from programs it had absorbed until it eventually spontaneously bootstrapped itself to sentience. And I have no trouble with the idea that a corporate computer network which includes the control computer for a molecular scanning laser/teleportation system could host an AI. An AI, though. Not dozens or hundreds of them. And given how bloated the MCP's code was, I imagine it took up a significant chunk of the resources on the company's servers.

ShadowDragon1 Wrote: The same is true of the sequel. So I see little difference. The Programs became "human like" not just to the spiritual-metaphysical piece of a Users "spirit" or "heart" they put into their creations, but alos due to the influence of the MCP having evovled from a Chess Program, into Program with A.I. and becoming the controller of a large coporate computer network.
And so other Programs gained similar traits of self-awarness within that system. How or why they did is a mystery. But in my opinion not all these unexplained elemets need explaination.

That's where I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I never got the impression that any of the other programs we saw in Tron were truly sentient in the way that the MCP was. I don't believe the audience was ever intended to imagine them as self-aware simulated beings living in a simulated world that can only exist within a very special computer system capable of supporting it, either. Only after Legacy framed Flynn's Grid in those terms are we seeing the old Encom system described that way in official media. That, to me, smacks of revisionism. Retcons aren't necessarily a bad thing, but in this particular case, I feel the changes they're making have raised more questions than they answered.

I think the reason I take issue with some of the other points in Legacy that you have no problems with is because of the difference in how we see the universe of the first film. Since you have no trouble embracing the idea that the Encom system was always a virtual world sim or that Tron, Ram, Yori, etc., were supposed to be AI entities capable of interacting convincingly with humans despite having been presented as ordinary computer programs, things like these programs having simulated genetic code doesn't particularly faze you. I feel it contradicts what we knew about the Tron universe pre-Legacy, and think retconning the first movie to bring it in line with the second feels clumsy. On the other hand, I never had a problem accepting Tron as science fantasy, and the idea of someone being digitized and interacting with anthropomorphized programs didn't bother me, particularly since the things taking place "within the computer" were (with some creative license, admittedly) representative of the kinds of things that actually do go on in computers, as they might appear from a program's-eye perspective.

ShadowDragon1 Wrote:It's an imaginative action adventure, and is not meant to be a documentary about real computer science and technology. It's a very fitting sequel to TRON, and many MANY other Tron fans and friends of mine think it is as well.

I don't think anyone's expecting much hard science in Tron. But working out the rules of your world, the mechanics of how things work and the implications that those things have on the setting as a whole, is the hallmark of good science fiction and fantasy. That's why you have some people trying to hash out what they feel are discrepancies between the movies to their satisfaction.

As far as how fitting a sequel Legacy is to the original Tron, I can respect your opinion, even though I don't necessarily share it. It is a great movie taken on its own merits. That much, at least, I definitely agree with.

Gnoop Wrote:I actually have no problem with The Grid in Legacy despite agreeing with most of the original post. The way I look at it, The Grid itself was still coded by a person (user). It's merely that it was coded inside-out vs. outside-in. In this regard you can consider it more like some of the modern day programming environments, where everything you see is graphical and you're clicking on things that generate the code for you, rather than coding everything by hand. If you think of it like this, Kevin's still doing all the programming. He's just going about it in a new way. In this way, he can design things like security and I/O control from within the system rather than at the keyboard.

Sort of like a GUI-as-CAD-system, where the act of creating and moving around structures on the Grid corresponds to creating and linking blocks of modular code? Hm... yeah, I can see that. Nice analogy!

rimwall Wrote:i agree. i also like to add that its really interesting that
thought processes and attitudes is copied but no actual memory to
reinforce the concept.

I think that may have been deliberate on Flynn's part.

If Flynn had imbued Clu with his memories as well as his attitudes and thought processes, he would effectively be creating a clone of himself. But that clone would be expected to live his life on the Grid, running things, while the other Flynn would be free to come and go as he pleased. And clone-Flynn would still remember himself as the real one, yet would be expected to defer to original-Flynn whenever he was on the Grid. It would be too cruel.

So instead, he created Clu's mind in the image of his own, but without memory. The Grid would be his home, the world of his birth. Without memories of a place beyond its confines, he wouldn't feel trapped there. At least, I think that was Flynn's reasoning at the time, though things didn't turn out as he imagined...

rimwall Wrote:oops sorry Argent i didn't mean to wax philosophic about clu's
emotional growth on your thread.

and thanks for the chance to post and read a unique
perspective.

Thank you, rimwall. You have some intriguing insights, and I enjoy discussing things like this. That's why I registered here.





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rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 6:51 AM
---------
Thank you, rimwall. You have some intriguing insights, and I enjoy discussing things like this. That's why I registered here.
---------

Welcome to tron sector Argent, and have fun

I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
getaclu
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Posts: 58
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 7:05 AM
I agree on CLU's assumption that he would've taken his Rectifier out into the real world, but I thought he would have went through by himself first and found a way to upgrade the laser and the computer in FLYNN'S to get his army into the REAL world! This was what I was thinking and I thought that was a scary concept! This crazy evil young version of Flynn was gonna get out into our world and get whatever he needed to get his army out to take over and "perfect" our world! Being a fan of that TRON rip-off tv show AUTOMAN made me appreciate that LEGACY kind of borrowed the idea back.


I hated the whole ISO thing, but hey if that's the only thing I hated about LEGACY, cool!

I always tell my friends to watch TRON after they tell me how cool THE MATRIX RELOADED is. I like both franchises, but RELOADED is practically the same film as the original TRON.

I liked the TRON 2.0 game alot, but if you look at that games story and look at the story in LEGACY, they are very similar, things are just changed around a little. To me this was a nod to that game and the fans like me that bought the game and enjoyed it.




 
RenegadeProgram
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Posts: 564
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 12:04 PM
I started reading through some of Argent's critique, and I think that some of you are missing a very basic fundamental difference between TRON and TRON: LEGACY which was spelled out several times by Joe Kosinski in interviews before Legacy came out, on several websites - the "grid" in TRON was not the grid in TRON: LEGACY. They are two different servers: The digital environment in TRON was inside the ENCOM 511; the digital environment inside of TRON: LEGACY was a secret server Flynn built in the basement of his arcade. Also, the programs in TRON all had users, and some dialogue by RAM clearly states that all types of programs were being snatched up by the MCP to play games on the game grid, if the MCP found them useful. The programs in TRON: LEGACY were more like SIMS, in that they were all created by Kevin Flynn's programming, except for the ISOS who just came to be due to a glitch in the system. So basically, all the programs in Legacy, except for the ISOS, had ONE user, Flynn himself. Also, the world inside the ENCOM 511, was just referred to collectively as THE SYSTEM, where as the collective environment inside Flynn's private server was collectively called THE GRID.

Also, while it was implied that the ENCOM 511 had an early version of internet access (maybe bulletin board type of access, since the internet wouldn't officially appear until years later), Flynn's secret server in TL did not have any internet access - it developed on its own, much like the Galapagos Islands, due to Flynn's repeated entries and exits into the GRID, until of course, he was trapped inside. Each time Flynn went in he helped develop his virtual world even more, programming modifications, and it's implied that there was some coding that took care of programming the changes itself.

I'll read the rest of Argent's critique. While TRON: Legacy was not a perfect film, and while there were some things I didn't like about it, I think way too many people are forgetting the two different servers fact of the first film and this film, especially after the director and producer, Joe Kosinski and Sean Bailey, went to GREAT pains to explain this before and after the movie came out. abortion pills online http://www.kvicksundscupen.se/template/default.aspx?abortion-questions cytotec abortion

Fighting for TRON, The USERS, Both Flynns, Independents, and the mighty ISOs since '82.
 
rimwall
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Posts: 507
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 12:50 PM
IluthraDanar Wrote:Poor Clu. If he found he would be uable to fulfill his plan of User world conquest, just another disappointment, in a long line of disappointments.

For whatever reason, Flynn thought he could do it. So what did Flynn know we don't?

to be taken with a grain of salt

i could paint a possible scenario where clu can get some
advance information about the entire laser digitization process,
prior to capturing kevin's disk. (feel free to point out
discrepancies if you spot them)

this hypothetical scenario will only give clu advance information
of the entire laser process and hundreds of years of research:

the yori program that was part of the entire un-digitization process
was obviously a walking talking program

assuming that the programs responsible for the entire laser
digitization process are also walking talking programs

clu only needs to capture these programs
and read their disks. this will give him advance
information, plus hundred of years of research to
prepare for the capture of flynn's disk.

if the programs were willing to work for clu then
so much the better.
(caveat : i can't prove or disprove the last paragraph)
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I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
NickyTea
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Posts: 155
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 1:36 PM
i can't believe how widely the rules fo the first Tron are being applied to Legacy ...

Is it such a stretch to think that perhaps Flynn was inspired by his first-movie experience to create the world of the second? Ergo, his first-movie experience was "metaphorical" as is stated here, but is a finite, world-building excercise in the terms of the second film's narrative?

Honestly, I feel like the logic of Legacy is somewhat more consistent overall ... there' s a real dissonance when I watch the first film. Flynn created space paranoids, but the encom server is patrolled, inexplicably, by the same Reconizers and features tanks and light cycles. Yes, I understand that the MCP, "appropriated" his games, but if this is a metaphorical experience on the program level, why would there also be literal recurranec of these video-game items?

The logic falls apart when you poke at it either way, be it Tron or Legacy. What really matters is the story they are using these worlds to tell. The metaphor for Flynn's digital perception is not so important as the metaphor of his journey as a character, and what it represents thematically.where to buy abortion pill http://blog.bitimpulse.com/template/default.aspx?abortion-types buy abortion pill online


 
AriesT
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Posts: 171
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 1:43 PM
The problem with those multiple unexplained or not-good-explained points is that they might have been the reason why T:L was ripped in two pieces by most critics. Those negative critics might have cost T:L 50 million dollars box office sales.

They should have concentrated on the Sam-Flynn and Flynn-CLU story and not filling in stuff they cannot even explain by themselves.

Unfortunately, the scenes with Sam and Kevin together were not emotional which made them bad and kind of unimportant. I mean... GOD!!! They did not see each other for 21 years. And everything they say is like:
Sam: "Dad!"
Flynn: "Sam!"
Sam: "Long time ago"
Flynn: "Lets have dinner"

...REALLY? Is this how a father reacts who sees his beloved son after such a long time trapped in his own world?


Or the mirror flashback with CLU.
Flynn: "I created you"
CLU: "You created me"
Flynn: *Backslapping CLU*

Why not showing how they create the ASCII-Code / buildings for the GRID? Wouldn't this have been a very impressive and strong flashback scene?

Sometimes it is the details, sometimes it is the missed potential of the overall story and the lack of emotion in the important scenes.


 
IluthraDanar
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Posts: 1,178
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 1:49 PM
I love debating, as long as its peaceful and insightful debate. I'm seeing things I never saw before, thanks to the many posts here. Please don't ruin it by getting pushed out of sorts, anyone. A busy board is a fun board.

So a thought, why is Clu a copy of Flynn, yet shows none of Flynn's positive side. Oh, Clu can be playful, in a destructive sort of way (that laugh when he de-rezzed the cyclist) So, is it the programming concerning creating a perfect system that makes him a darker image of Flynn?


Forget it, Mr High and Mighty Master Control. You aren't making me talk.


 
NickyTea
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Posts: 155
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 2:56 PM
AriesT Wrote: And everything they say is like:
Sam: "Dad!"
Flynn: "Sam!"
Sam: "Long time ago"
Flynn: "Lets have dinner"

...REALLY? Is this how a father reacts who sees his beloved son after such a long time trapped in his own world?


Or the mirror flashback with CLU.
Flynn: "I created you"
CLU: "You created me"
Flynn: *Backslapping CLU*



The scene's you mention are not "like" that. You're spinning them interpretively out of context to suit your point. Omitting lines and delivery isn't quite the fair way to judge the effectiveness of a scene. Every audience I have seen the movie with, has had an audible reaction to the first Sam/Kevin scene.

"Dad"
"Sam"
"Long time"
"You have no idea." The music that begins at this point in the scene underscores the tenderness of delivery the actors offer. Look in his eyes as he says:
"You're here." He clutches his son for the first time in twenty years, repeating breathlessly, "You're here," the phiscal contact finally making tangible the thought into his long hibernated mind.
Then a moment of immediate observation as Keving pulls himself back and looks his son up and down, seeing how much he's grown. "You're big."
Sam, unable to form any appropriately unique response, starts, "You're ..."
"...old," Kevin finishes Sam's (and the audience's) thought.

There's another reading for you. There's no objective way to assess the effectiveness of a performance, but I can very well say that out of nine audiences I've had the pleasure of viewing with, this scene is absolute gold.where to buy abortion pill abortion types buy abortion pill online


 
IluthraDanar
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Posts: 1,178
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 3:28 PM
NickyTea Wrote:
AriesT Wrote: And everything they say is like:
Sam: "Dad!"
Flynn: "Sam!"
Sam: "Long time ago"
Flynn: "Lets have dinner"

...REALLY? Is this how a father reacts who sees his beloved son after such a long time trapped in his own world?


Or the mirror flashback with CLU.
Flynn: "I created you"
CLU: "You created me"
Flynn: *Backslapping CLU*



The scene's you mention are not "like" that. You're spinning them interpretively out of context to suit your point. Omitting lines and delivery isn't quite the fair way to judge the effectiveness of a scene. Every audience I have seen the movie with, has had an audible reaction to the first Sam/Kevin scene.

"Dad"
"Sam"
"Long time"
"You have no idea." The music that begins at this point in the scene underscores the tenderness of delivery the actors offer. Look in his eyes as he says:
"You're here." He clutches his son for the first time in twenty years, repeating breathlessly, "You're here," the phiscal contact finally making tangible the thought into his long hibernated mind.
Then a moment of immediate observation as Keving pulls himself back and looks his son up and down, seeing how much he's grown. "You're big."
Sam, unable to form any appropriately unique response, starts, "You're ..."
"...old," Kevin finishes Sam's (and the audience's) thought.

There's another reading for you. There's no objective way to assess the effectiveness of a performance, but I can very well say that out of nine audiences I've had the pleasure of viewing with, this scene is absolute gold.

This scene was so moving. Now compare when Clu appears to Sam the first time, Sam thinking its his dad. Clu says you've grown or something, but makes no move to him except to circle him like a wolf. The "real" dad hugs his son right off. It had to have been awkward, so supper together would be a way to relax with each other and catch up. When Flynn goes outside, his feelings are quite apparent. And the fact that Sam isn'tr angry with his dad, as happens on so many films, he knows that it wasn't all Flynn's fault he vanished. Later, Sam tells Q that he doesn't want to lose his dad again, and Flynn indicates likewise. That is why I want Flynn to come back in film 3. They need to be together again.


Forget it, Mr High and Mighty Master Control. You aren't making me talk.


 
Kat
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Posts: 2,389
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 4:24 PM
Gridlord Wrote: Another thing I'm surprised you didn't mention that bothered me was the fact that you could age in the computer. I don't feel a person should age in the system myself.
!
I'm not sure how I feel about that. If a person's matter is suspended in the laser, does it still age like normal? If so, then the person in the system should probably age. If not...well, that opens up a new set of issues, like what happens if you're there for a long time, come back, and are the same age?

Something else i've always wondered is how the digitization process DOES affect the human body. I would think it would do something to it...perhaps speed up the cell aging process so that one ages faster, or maybe the chance that cells can be damaged when being digitized/reconstructed so a higher risk of cancer, or something. (That last part just hit me--in my fan fic, Lora dies of cancer...hrm, perhaps that could be addressed...)


JInfantry23 Wrote:Forgive me if this sounds like I'm being disrespectful, it's not meant to, but if one can accept that a human being can be digitized into a computer and fight with neon frisbees, and then complain about something else in the film "breaking their suspension of disbelief", I just ain't buying it.

To quote the great MST3K theme:

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,
I should really just relax..."

Well, the thing is, though...they don't ask us to entirely suspend disbelief, so we dont' want to have to. Let's--I know some will hate this, but roll with it--consider the Matrix again for a moment. Entirely implausible concept. I mean, okay, I know, we're supposed to think "gosh, we could be in the Matrix right now and not know" but aside from that...AI technology doesn't exist to that level, people can't be made to be able to be plugged in, etc. They're not asking us to believe one iota of it, there is no true reality they're trying to state since it's all so fantastic we're not SUPPOSED to believe it's real, so we can believe that anything can happen and we're cool with that, because our "fantasy switch" has been fully turned on. You could say the same of, say, Shrek or The Neverending Story (hey, did anybody mention that on the 80s movies thread?), etc. etc.

Not so with Tron. Tron is trying to tell us that perhaps, in our computers, all these little dudes are running around. "Hey Firefox! What the hell's your user doing to bog down the processor?" and Download Manager pipes up, "sorry, dude, he's downloading a movie." And yada yada. We're supposed to imagine this could be happening right now, in the real world. So we expect that it might actually need to be somewhat plausible...

LOL, or I guess I could've read on to where you said it better!:
Argent Wrote:I think the reason I take issue with some of the other points in Legacy that you have no problems with is because of the difference in how we see the universe of the first film. Since you have no trouble embracing the idea that the Encom system was always a virtual world sim or that Tron, Ram, Yori, etc., were supposed to be AI entities capable of interacting convincingly with humans despite having been presented as ordinary computer programs, things like these programs having simulated genetic code doesn't particularly faze you. I feel it contradicts what we knew about the Tron universe pre-Legacy, and think retconning the first movie to bring it in line with the second feels clumsy. On the other hand, I never had a problem accepting Tron as science fantasy, and the idea of someone being digitized and interacting with anthropomorphized programs didn't bother me, particularly since the things taking place "within the computer" were (with some creative license, admittedly) representative of the kinds of things that actually do go on in computers, as they might appear from a program's-eye perspective.


JediTray Wrote:So, while I agree with many points, my response is, "Yeah, but it ain't as bad as what was done to Star Wars."
OMG, Star Wars... *sob*


Argent Wrote:Thanks for all the replies, everyone!

Vinz Wrote:I don't mean to just be "Oh, I like how you said this, and I agree with that" but like I said, I have very similar thoughts on this topic. I really like TRON, and I really like Legacy, but not exactly for the same reasons.

No worries, Vinz. I'm just glad there are other people out there who don't think I'm totally off-base with this stuff.
Not me, no. Some of it bugged me too. And hell, I'll go ahead and say...if I ever get to see the original, maybe parts of that will bug me too.


NickyTea Wrote:Honestly, I feel like the logic of Legacy is somewhat more consistent overall ... there' s a real dissonance when I watch the first film. Flynn created space paranoids, but the encom server is patrolled, inexplicably, by the same Reconizers and features tanks and light cycles. Yes, I understand that the MCP, "appropriated" his games, but if this is a metaphorical experience on the program level, why would there also be literal recurranec of these video-game items?
.
Hrm, good point. I was thinking all the games were post-movie, so, like the Tron game, were inspired by his experiences, but you're right, duh. However, I guess if the Encom Grid WAS a games environment, then he could've been testing out the games there? Though again some are saying that was retconned, not the idea from the original movie.


AriesT Wrote:Unfortunately, the scenes with Sam and Kevin together were not emotional which made them bad and kind of unimportant. I mean... GOD!!! They did not see each other for 21 years. And everything they say is like:
Sam: "Dad!"
Flynn: "Sam!"
Sam: "Long time ago"
Flynn: "Lets have dinner"

...REALLY? Is this how a father reacts who sees his beloved son after such a long time trapped in his own world?
.
This sorta bugged me too. I thought Flynn was pretty emotional, and Sam's all like, "uh...yeah...this guy is hugging me, um....freaky...." Granted, you can see him tearing up a bit, but otherwise he acts sort of uncomfortable. I suppose Hedlund could've been playing it where Sam has this attitude of "um, yeah, you walk out on me for 20 years and now you're crying seeing me??" since he doesn't know yet that Flynn didn't CHOOSE to stay away, but if that's what it was, it wasn't made clear...

But Flynn's attitude is still strange. He's all, "yay, you're here!" Anyone with half a brain would be all "um, and that can't be good." I mean, essentially he's still planning to not oppose Clu, and I got the impression that he didn't want Sam to make a break for the portal as it would be too "dangerous", so IOW, right at that point he's thinking Sam's gonna be stuck there forever too. And I know misery loves company, but...


What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Gridlord
User

Posts: 46
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Saturday, February, 26, 2011 9:28 PM
My reasoning for why nobody should age in the system comes from the original Tron. We know from what Walter says that the laser converts matter into energy. You become basically a digital template. Another point in favor of my argument is the fact that when Flynn is returned to the "real world" he reappears in the EXACT same pose he was in when the MCP hit him with the laser. It was as if he never went anywhere.
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rimwall
User

Posts: 507
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Sunday, February, 27, 2011 11:23 AM
LWSrocks Wrote:About the games. One thing that can't be explained is the scene where that one kid at the arcade is playing light cycles, and see Sark.

if you meant this scene

then yes -this one is hard to explain

I.T. support: yes sir - you click start to turn off your p.c.

 
IluthraDanar
User

Posts: 1,178
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Sunday, February, 27, 2011 1:57 PM
rimwall Wrote:
LWSrocks Wrote:About the games. One thing that can't be explained is the scene where that one kid at the arcade is playing light cycles, and see Sark.

if you meant this scene

then yes -this one is hard to explain

The kid sees Sark? I thought we, the audience, were seeing him to show what it was like "inside" the game.


Forget it, Mr High and Mighty Master Control. You aren't making me talk.


 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,389
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Sunday, February, 27, 2011 2:24 PM
IluthraDanar Wrote:The kid sees Sark? I thought we, the audience, were seeing him to show what it was like "inside" the game.
I think that's what he meant--just a typo. If you look back at the sentence, it looks like there should be a "we" there that got left out....


What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
Byteman
User

Posts: 83
RE: My issues with Tron: Legacy (Warning: LONG)

on Sunday, February, 27, 2011 5:26 PM
GREETINGS PROGRAMS!
First time poster, long time TRON fan.

I thought I'd go ahead and jump in with both feet. Hope I don't make a mess of the format.
So many forums...so many different interfaces.

Argent Wrote:CONTRADICTORY ASSUMPTIONS
One of the biggest problems I had with Tron: Legacy is the way it diverges from the original. I'm not talking about the aesthetics of Flynn's Grid in Legacy vs. the Encom mainframe in the original Tron. No, what I'm referring to here are fundamental assumptions about how things work in the Tron universe.

Simply put, I think you have made too many assumptions. You might wanna go back and have a real good look at the first film again.

Programs had intelligence, and even emotion before Flynn ever got digitized. His back and forth with CLU1 should have made that obvious. When Tron communicates with Allen at the IO tower, that should have been a second clue that programs and users talk to each other like two people. Tron, and other programs belief in the Users existed before Flynn digitized. Believing, or not believing in something takes intelligence.

Their "humanoid" form is likewise present before Flynn arrives. Proven by the Lightcycle race, and, again...CLU1. These are not metaphorical forms, they are genuine forms in a simulation world. Flynn even knows that CLU1 is in a tank.

The light-cycle arcade machine has a picture of the MCP "armored cylinder" on it. That alone is proof that the computer world is a "space" filled with "things" that someone designed and not just a metaphorical interpretation of something the Human mind was making sense of. After all someone drew the thing and slapped it on an arcade before Flynn ever got there.

Flynn wasn't surprised at how the computer world looked, he was only surprised that he was actually there at all. Even the MCP knew that Flynn would arrive in a "place" in the computer world if he digitized him.

BTW...IIRC, there is nothing in canon that tells us how powerful the Encom hardware really was, and how it translates into real world computing. The digitizing lasers, and advanced touchscreens should be a big clue that in the TRON universe they are ahead of the real technology of the 1980's.

PROGRAMS ESCAPING TO THE REAL WORLD
Another issue I had with Legacy was the whole "programs manifesting in the real world" thing. I can accept the idea of someone being digitized, Tron-style. The scanning laser measures the state and position of each atom as it breaks down the target, creating a digital template that's used to reassemble it? No problem. Star Trek's transporters have been doing more or less the same thing for decades. I can buy the idea of that digital template somehow being conscious and aware while stored in the computer, and able to interact with the programs there as people. That's what Tron was all about. The problem arises when you try to go in the opposite direction. Attempts at revisionist history aside, the first movie showed us that the programs Flynn encountered in the digital world were just that - ordinary programs that he saw as people by virtue of being "inside" the computer. So let's look at the assumptions we're operating under here.

I'd rather stick to presented facts.

Fact, the digitizing Laser takes physical information, turns it into digital information, and stores it or transfers it to a hardware system (the Grid's). It can also take a digital information and turn it into something physical.

Fact, programs in the Tron universe are complex enough to survive in the real world. Both Grids had simulations of the real world that programs had to subject themselves to. In the first movie, it was the Solar Sailor Simulator, and the Sea of simulation environment. Possibly the whole world at large, since we do see clouds present. In Legacy it was definitely the entire Grid.

Since programs have an actual form, and it can survive simulated real world conditions, then they can go into the real world. Just like a Human has an actual form, and can survive in real world conditions, can go into the simulated Grid.

REINTEGRATION

I actually had a problem with this as well. It was so quick, and they don't really say why.

My idea is that CLU2 does in fact have some of Flynn's "essence" or whatever you wanna call it...for the purpose of commanding the Grid. Something that grew during his thousands of years (grid-time) of ruling the Grid into something independent. Upon reintegration, Flynn simply couldn't contain the both himself and the (now) independent and fully realized essence of CLU2.

I don't have much to support this, except maybe CLU2 initial lifelessness, and his later passion for conquest. Just my own idea.

THE IMPORTANCE OF THE ISOS

What does it mean?

It's really too much for this topic. But to try and at least list one point. It would prove an intelligence outside of mankind. The written programs are still from man, they aren't "alien" like the ISO's.

How huge is completely alien intelligence to you?

SAM NEVER GETS HIS MOMENT TO SHINE

All that real world stuff Sam did, was to show the audience that he is an athletic risk taker. That way they don't sit there and wonder how some kid is instantly so good at jumping light cycles, and parachuting like it's nothing in the computer world. Or leaping from disc-war box to box.

Sam gets plenty of time to shine.
You are just dead-set on discrediting and minimizing them all.

TRON?

Appearing at the last moment and saving the day, would have ruined (and possibly prevented) Flynn's sacrificing himself for his son.

If anything, Tron's hand should have shot out of the water right when the camera blur-fades back to the real world.

CONCLUSION

It's a movie. Relax guy..gal?


















 
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