Traahn Wrote:T:L was immersive for me, but with the T:L landscapes only consisting of black and cold blue, and only one I/O tower... along with a consistenly barren world, I can't say I'd like to visit it nearly as much as 's world. I find the original Tron's world more interesting, beautiful.and intricate. It also feels more like a computer world than T:L's, Tron's not perfect at all, and I get why people don't like it or aren't as captivated by it. But I don't think it'd be a mistake to revert more to the original art and presentation style using today's technology and cinematic knowledge for Tr3n. At least then, when comparing old style to new style, it'd be a more modern and relevant comparison than when trying to compare a 1982 version against a 2010 version. And if the T:L style then still wins out on the immersion factor (over both Tron and Tr3n's), then so be it. At least it will have been a fairer match/competiion,and disagreements in opinions like this will have the factor of time and technological evolution over 30 years removed from the equation.

Hey Traahn,

I too, agree that I find the digital environs inside the ENCOM 511 more visually interesting than the one inside Kevin Flynn's secret server in Legacy; Hope that the digital world in TR3N looks more like the digital world in TRON 2.0. I also agree with you on the whole I/O Tower thing to a point - I'd say that the portal in Legacy was a modified I/O Tower that instead of functioning as I/O simply functioned as a door between the real and digital worlds, that fed straight into Flynn's modified Shiva Laser. Hope that Quorra's character is more developed, and that she doesn't end up having to be rescued by Sam, but that she can hold her own-one thing that irritated me in Legacy was this -we were constantly told how her ISOness made her one-of-a-kind, but visually, Kitsis, Horowitz, and Kosinski didn't reinforce this enough-case in point, the scene where her arm was hacked off in the EOL Club-I mean, if she was really special then why couldn't she just regenerate her arm ( like certain amphibians can regenerate limbs) and keep on ticking like the energizer bunny??? Hopefully she can team up with YORI and Dr. Lora Baines-Bradley in TR3N.

Personally, I've come away from Tron Legacy and all the organized supporting fiction, such as the Betrayal graphic novel, with a distinct impression: that the Tron universe and its rules were being retconned a little bit in order to cope with updated audience expectations.

I really do think (until we hear directly otherwise) that the conceptualization of the Electronic World, has been changed from "this is a literal representation of what the hardware in your computer is doing". Rather, it's now "technology is creating a parallel universe in which people use programs and software to sculpt reality". In this sense, the Electronic World is a bit more like "virtual reality" or a simulated "matrix" but with one wierder, wilder, and deeper twist: the programs and software that "Users" run are shaping the reality of the EW, but the EW isn't just a simulation. It's a real universe, with its own substance and even laws of physics. It's just that human thought, as expressed through the language of math and computer programs, is shaping that universe from chaos into something with structure and order. This perspective does preserve a lot of the mystery and uniqueness of Tron. Honestly, I felt the art direction of Legacy reflected this updated concept. The further one went away from the center of the Grid, where Flynn's programming defined a coherent reality, the more the electronic world broke down into fractal substance and mist. One might imagine that past that point, there was only random subspace chaos.

The suggestion of Legacy's Grid being a "runtime" environment is actually closer to this than the original Tron's insinuations about just what we were seeing on the screen.

I think Legacy's world actually does make almost complete sense, and there are production materials that went into its design that suggest the creators were thinking about these questions. The biggest conflicts come not from new viewers but from Tron fans trying to sort the old and new interpretations.

In that regard, I would not review the structure and storytelling of Legacy so harshly. I think its biggest problem is that it's a bit unfocused. It feels as if they had to pull a screenplay together from a very rich tapestry which had been mapped out to build upon the universe of the original movie and fill in a hypothetical 28 year timeline. And they picked and chose all sorts of elements but there wasn't a single strong, shining narrative that tied them all together.

As a result, you can make a lot of sense of the movie postfacto, by thinking about the insinuated connections between the many pieces its plot placed upon the board. (Or the grid, ha ha.) But it could have been a lot tighter. That's absolutely true.

Even so, I personally have to forgive a lot of it, not because I'm a fan of Tron, but because they had a tall order: resurrect a franchise from history's dust bin, connect a new and vastly expanded universe to an aging film but re-invent it, and try to make it so that totally new people can get into it and think it's cool without feeling as if they're watching what is nothing more than a love letter to fans of a single old film.

The good part is that the really nasty stuff is out of the way.

They've really cleared the plate, reset a lot of things, and set up a fresh start for telling a story that belongs wholly to the new characters like Sam and Quorra, with returning characters like Alan and Tron available to support them. And if Tron 3 happens, I think it's a safe bet that Tron will be the starring digitally enhanced character, unmasked and all, now that production costs don't have to be devoted to digitally de-aging Jeff for Clu 2.

spacedinosaurblue Wrote:Personally, I've come away from Tron Legacy and all the organized supporting fiction, such as the Betrayal graphic novel, with a distinct impression: that the Tron universe and its rules were being retconned a little bit in order to cope with updated audience expectations. I really do think (until we hear directly otherwise) that the conceptualization of the Electronic World, has been changed from "this is a literal representation of what the hardware in your computer is doing". Rather, it's now "technology is creating a parallel universe in which people use programs and software to sculpt reality". In this sense, the Electronic World is a bit more like "virtual reality" or a simulated "matrix" but with one wierder, wilder, and deeper twist: the programs and software that "Users" run are shaping the reality of the EW, but the EW isn't just a simulation. It's a real universe, with its own substance and even laws of physics. It's just that human thought, as expressed through the language of math and computer programs, is shaping that universe from chaos into something with structure and order. This perspective does preserve a lot of the mystery and uniqueness of Tron. Honestly, I felt the art direction of Legacy reflected this updated concept. The further one went away from the center of the Grid, where Flynn's programming defined a coherent reality, the more the electronic world broke down into fractal substance and mist. One might imagine that past that point, there was only random subspace chaos. The suggestion of Legacy's Grid being a "runtime" environment is actually closer to this than the original Tron's insinuations about just what we were seeing on the screen. I think Legacy's world actually does make almost complete sense, and there are production materials that went into its design that suggest the creators were thinking about these questions. The biggest conflicts come not from new viewers but from Tron fans trying to sort the old and new interpretations. In that regard, I would not review the structure and storytelling of Legacy so harshly. I think its biggest problem is that it's a bit unfocused. It feels as if they had to pull a screenplay together from a very rich tapestry which had been mapped out to build upon the universe of the original movie and fill in a hypothetical 28 year timeline. And they picked and chose all sorts of elements but there wasn't a single strong, shining narrative that tied them all together. As a result, you can make a lot of sense of the movie postfacto, by thinking about the insinuated connections between the many pieces its plot placed upon the board. (Or the grid, ha ha.) But it could have been a lot tighter. That's absolutely true. Even so, I personally have to forgive a lot of it, not because I'm a fan of Tron, but because they had a tall order: resurrect a franchise from history's dust bin, connect a new and vastly expanded universe to an aging film but re-invent it, and try to make it so that totally new people can get into it and think it's cool without feeling as if they're watching what is nothing more than a love letter to fans of a single old film. The good part is that the really nasty stuff is out of the way. They've really cleared the plate, reset a lot of things, and set up a fresh start for telling a story that belongs wholly to the new characters like Sam and Quorra, with returning characters like Alan and Tron available to support them. And if Tron 3 happens, I think it's a safe bet that Tron will be the starring digitally enhanced character, unmasked and all, now that production costs don't have to be devoted to digitally de-aging Jeff for Clu 2.

Nothing to say but +1.

Kat Wrote:But no one seems that interested in new characters. Everyone wants the old characters back--

No one who's a fan of the first Tron, you mean? The tone set on T:L's IMDB board was a lot less unambiguous about this, unless you want to argue the notion that IMDB is frequented by a majority of idiots to mitigate the force of their opinion.

Kat Wrote:much clamoring for Yori and Ram to come back (which would involve a retconned-and-possibly-unbelievable explanation, and a downright resurrection, respectively)-- and the old plot (a Dillinger being the bad guy, the MCP as a villain) to return.

The story might have had its share of resurrections already - first the discovery that Flynn lives, then Rinzler>Tron. I don't think it looks good for Ram's return. :/

As for Yori's (potential) return, perhaps since Lora never stopped working we'll be able to see a more up-to-date incarnation?where to buy abortion pill ordering abortion pills to be shipped to house buy abortion pill online

Argent: +1

Kat wrote: I think T:L stands fine on its own; it's when you realize you have to reconcile it with T82 that the problems start

This is because they deviated so heavily from the original to make T:L what it is. They changed several foundational elements in the guise of 'evolving,' so now any steps toward bringing it back to what it should have been in the first place is not going to be easy. Or it's going to torque off T:L fans; making them complain that the changes are being made simply to satisy the old school, anti-change, short-sighted, stuck-in-the-past, rose-colored glaases wearing people who like Tron better than T:L. (Which is inflammatory and false.)

T:L, with it turning the story's focus and Tron universe upside down, has made a nice rift between fans who prefer Original Tron and fans who prefer T:L. Now that everyone has a different ideal for what the Tron story, world and characters should be like, Tr3n won't be able to please all Tron fans in unison. If T:L was more respectful of Tron groundwork, more folks would be on the same page going into Tr3n.

Yori never got derezed in Tron. Bringing her back shouldn't be that big of an issue. Well, it is now since T:L's story had nothing to do with the Encom 511 or original Tron universe. Bringing Tron back shouldn't be a big deal since the franchise is named after him.
... And it sucks he only had 5 seconds of screen time in T:L. Ram and MCP are stretching it, but I admit I personally think it'd be cool and hope at least an MCP 2.0 happens.

Judging from the sequel hook and the comment I read about "Cillian Murphy doesn't do cameos." we're probably going to see Master Control 2.0 coming down the pike, probably with tentacles embedded in OS12 (which would make Sam's little stunt a "nice job breaking it, hero!")

Yori's easy enough to explain. Ghu knows fanfic writers know a few dodges. Everything from her being stored in an archive (which could be justified if they shelved the laser tech - she was one of the programs running it), to bringing her to the Grid and her lying low after a falling out with Flynn (my private theory)

In terms of going "back to the beginning?" Well, Legacy was dark. Most of the digital characters outside of the Flynns and Quorra were complete assholes. There were no characters like Ram or Yori or Dumont who were willing to step up and help. We get a token nod to a "Resistance," but they died to quick to make any difference.

There wasn't a happy ending or much of an ending at all - Flynn turned into a broken ruin that committed suicide and took Clu with him. Quorra's lost everything - and will never truly fit into analog or digital. Sam, Alan, and Roy get no answers or closure, damned to clean up a mess they never made with no one knowing what they sacrificed to save the world. And poor Tronzler...he's a mess. It's frankly turned me off from the first film, which was one of my all time favorites. I can't watch it without knowing how it all goes to hell, how it's all destroyed.

So my request to the writers of the third? Show the wonders of this new world. Show me there are such a thing as good Programs. Show me it's worth fighting for, and that the characters' suffering and pain wasn't pointless. Otherwise, the sane option seems to be nuking the whole thing.

Kat Wrote:I dunno. I don't want the old villains or plots back, or they might as well just do a remake of T82 and get it over with-- and I'd rather watch the original. I want to see these folks actually get creative and come up with something we can love, rather than recycling old stuff and hoping we'll like it just on the merits of familiarity. I wouldn't want my intelligence insulted that way, for them to say "hell, we don't need a good story; we just need Yori and the MCP and they'll eat it up!"

I'm of two minds on the issue.

I'd like for Tron 3 to be more than a rehash of the original Tron, myself. If they're just going to reprise the original, they might as well have rebooted the franchise outright instead of positioning Legacy a sequel. (Though given the change in direction, they may have been better off just doing that anyway. Then they could've established a new set of ground rules for the universe from the get-go, with none of the jarring sense of discontinuity you get when you try to reconcile the two movies.)

However, since it is the third installment in the franchise, long-time fans are going to have certain expectations. This is especially true in the wake of Legacy, where the people who've been waiting 20+ years for a sequel to Tron finally received one, only to see their expectations remain unfulfilled by the filmmakers. So it's even more important now to see at least some of those things addressed in Tron 3.

I don't think it's necessary to bring back Ram or Yori, to be honest. Ram was a great character, but bringing him back in Tron 3 just to appease the fans would cheapen his death, IMO. I liked Yori (and Dr. Baines), and wouldn't mind seeing either or both return, but only if it's done in a way that feels organic, rather than a clumsy attempt to shoehorn the character into the screenplay to appease the fanbase.

Now, the MCP, on the other hand... The MCP is Tron's Darth Vader. He's the iconic villain of the franchise. At the end of Tron, they make a point of showing the audience that he survived. I think it's pretty natural for fans to expect him to return. And today, with the internet everywhere and the threat of cyberterrorism on peoples' minds, the idea of a malevolent AI that can hack into corporate and government computers with impunity is arguably more relevant - and feels even more threatening - than it was back in '82. The basic concept still plays well.

There's also the way they teased the 'Dillinger Systems' thing in The Next Day, and the little 'IRC chat' easter egg hidden on the DVD. They went out of their way to let us know that Dillinger Sr. is still very much active, that he went on to build a company that rivals Encom, and that he still bears a grudge against the Flynns. It'd be a bit cruel to throw that out there to whet fans' interest, then never follow up on it. (And here's a creepy thought. What if Dillinger Sr.'s actually long dead, and the MCP 2.0's been secretly running the show in his name? Imagine the MCP communicating via email and IM's, maybe teleconferencing through an avatar, all the while maintaining this fiction that Dillinger Sr.'s become a Howard Hughes-style recluse... And what if this turns out to be the 'father' who raised young Ed? >.>)

So no, I don't think I'd mind seeing Dillinger Sr. and/or the MCP appear as antagonists in the third film. Give the long-time fans the payoff they've been waiting for, give them some closure, and hold out the promise of exploring all-new vistas in Tron 4 and beyond.

(As far as Dillinger Jr. goes, I'd rather not see him revealed as a blackhearted villain like his father. I do imagine him being contemptuous of Sam, at least initially - I imagine Dillinger Sr. spared no opportunity to tell young Ed about what really went down at Encom while he was growing up - how he had lost everything thanks to the machinations of that backstabbing hippie Kevin Flynn, and had been forced to claw his way back to the top - and the whole 'motorcycle-riding layabout living off of his inheritance' thing probably wouldn't sit well with a corporate type like Ed Jr., either. I'm envisioning an arc where Ed Jr. starts out firmly in his father's camp, possibly indulging in a bit of corporate espionage on his behalf, but as he gets to know Sam and the things he believes he knows are called into question, he gradually becomes aware of just how much of a sleazebag his father really is and how he'd been lied to over the years, culminating in siding with Sam against Ed Sr. at the movie's climax.

I'm already imagining exchanges like these:

DillinJr: 'You know, Sam, I used to think you were lazy, stupid, and self-indulgent.'
Sam: 'And now?'
DillinJr: 'You're not stupid.')

J Wrote:In terms of going "back to the beginning?" Well, Legacy was dark. Most of the digital characters outside of the Flynns and Quorra were complete assholes. There were no characters like Ram or Yori or Dumont who were willing to step up and help. We get a token nod to a "Resistance," but they died to quick to make any difference.

That's something I think they're addressing with Uprising. We'll get to see that resistance firsthand, and get to meet more of the inhabitants of Flynn's system, which is part of the reason I'm looking forward to it.

Argent Wrote:Now, the MCP, on the other hand... The MCP is Tron's Darth Vader. He's the iconic villain of the franchise. At the end of Tron, they make a point of showing the audience that he survived. I think it's pretty natural for fans to expect him to return. And today, with the internet everywhere and the threat of cyberterrorism on peoples' minds, the idea of a malevolent AI that can hack into corporate and government computers with impunity is arguably more relevant - and feels even more threatening - than it was back in '82. The basic concept still plays well.

I think either Dillinger might be too smart to bring back the MCP, though After all, MCP was manipulative enough to blackmail Dillinger... not sure he'd make that mistake again. Though it's possible that if the MCP is still around somewhere, perhaps it's something they might end up having to all battle together once they figure it out.

Argent Wrote: (As far as Dillinger Jr. goes, I'd rather not see him revealed as a blackhearted villain like his father. I do imagine him being contemptuous of Sam, at least initially -

I actually imagined in the other way around-- Dillinjr doesn't much care about Sam either way, but Sam's got a serious thing against the guy (after all, the dude's dad screwed over his dad), is distrustful as hell (and probably wonders why Dillinjr would want to work at Encom), and is the one who keeps open antagonism between the two when they could really probably just exist ignoring each other. We know Sam's got a temper, we know he can hold a grudge, and we know he's touchy about anything related to his dad.

I don't imagine that even if they manage to work together, that they'd ever become friends. Professional respect, yes, and perhaps an acknowledgment that they're working for the same things and sometimes working together toward that end (like my Edward story), but never really friendly.

But I don't see Dillinjr as a "corporate" type either. It's pretty obvious in the board meeting scene that he's probably not...

Zuse Wrote: That or they could skip young Tron all together and have Alan bring an updated Tron program into the grid, which would take on his current appearance.

Oh dear. Old-guy Tron??? Heaven help us.

(I have yet to figure out why they didn't do the models after T82 Tron-- why would a program appear to age? {Esp. since it's not like Alan would've updated him so the explanation could be that he looked like Alan at the age Alan updated him})

Traahn Wrote: Argent wrote: Now, the MCP, on the other hand... The MCP is Tron's Darth Vader. He's the iconic villain of the franchise. At the end of Tron, they make a point of showing the audience that he survived. I think it's pretty natural for fans to expect him to return. Really, he survived? I've watched the movie a lot... way too many times... and I've never had the feeling the MCP survived. Where do they show that he survived? In the movie I have, it shows the MCP blown to smithereens and the I/O towers all turning blue

When we see the wizened face of the MCP withdraw into the shadowy recesses of its sandstone sarcophagus-looking assembly, I always saw that as the 'core' of the MCP escaping to fight another day. Defeated, stripped of all the power it had accumulated by abducting programs and absorbing into itself, but not obliterated outright the way we'd seen with other programs that got derezzed. The fact that the MCP 'core' didn't go up in a shower of light like those other programs always stuck with me as being significant.order abortion pill http://unclejohnsprojects.com/template/default.aspx?morning-after-pill-price where to buy abortion pill

Argent Wrote: Traahn Wrote: Argent wrote: Now, the MCP, on the other hand... The MCP is Tron's Darth Vader. He's the iconic villain of the franchise. At the end of Tron, they make a point of showing the audience that he survived. I think it's pretty natural for fans to expect him to return. Really, he survived? I've watched the movie a lot... way too many times... and I've never had the feeling the MCP survived. Where do they show that he survived? In the movie I have, it shows the MCP blown to smithereens and the I/O towers all turning blue When we see the wizened face of the MCP withdraw into the shadowy recesses of its sandstone sarcophagus-looking assembly, I always saw that as the 'core' of the MCP escaping to fight another day. Defeated, stripped of all the power it had accumulated by abducting programs and absorbing into itself, but not obliterated outright the way we'd seen with other programs that got derezzed. The fact that the MCP 'core' didn't go up in a shower of light like those other programs always stuck with me as being significant.

Oh no! He's Voldemort!

Argent Wrote:He's certainly more 'corporate' than Sam. He's attending the board meeting, for one thing, while Sam's busy sabotaging it. ; ) Toeing the company line with the whole 'the idea of sharing our software, or giving it away for free, disappeared with Kevin Flynn' bit suggests to me that he's not only a career-oriented, profits-first type, but that he's pretty contemptuous of the ideals of Flynn Sr. Maybe you get a different vibe from the character entirely, but I see him as this smug hipster techie type - he's skilled and knows it, and wants other people to know it - but also someone who's put in the work to get to where he is. And then we have Sam, who's effectively a trust fund baby, and has probably never done an honest day's work in his life. And who also happens to be the leading shareholder in the company DillinJr works for. I really can't see much love lost between them.

Yeah, but you know me and Dillinjr. You read this, right? http://www.tron-sector.com/forums/default.aspx?a=top&id=438403

Zuse Wrote: spacedinosaurblue Wrote:And if Tron 3 happens, I think it's a safe bet that Tron will be the starring digitally enhanced character, unmasked and all, now that production costs don't have to be devoted to digitally de-aging Jeff for Clu 2. I used to think the reason we only see Tron unmasked for a brief bit, and why during that time there was a heavy filter applied to the scene, was due to budgetary reasons as well. Seeing this makes me second guess that though. Dan Platt:Tron Having Bruce Boxleitner reprise his younger role as “Tron” was pretty exciting. Just like Clu, I “youthenized” him using Mudbox, taking the then 60 year old actor and making him look as he was in his early 30's. Unfortunately, he was rendered with a heavy filter to suggest “a flashback”, obscuring much of his likeness. Sigh. Created in Maya & Mudbox 100% Quads" He also posted the CGI models for Tron on his site. So it looks like the guy did all the necessary work on the character model, and that it was just the particular direction they wanted to take the story that lead to us not seeing Tron's face more. After all the twist depends on not knowing who's under the mask, and while I'm sure many of the hard core fans would say how can you not know? But I saw Legacy with pretty fresh eyes, I didn't partake in any discussion prior to the film, and I think I had seen maybe one trailer and a couple TV spots. For me the twist was a big holy crap moment, and then I felt dumb for not noticing the T on his chest. But generally upon a first viewing I am paying more attention to the story than the visual details. But anywho... I would assume they still have these young Tron models and at most all they would really need to do is update them a bit for the advancements made within the years between films. That or they could skip young Tron all together and have Alan bring an updated Tron program into the grid, which would take on his current appearance.

Can I just say that I REALLY LOVE that photo!

When I first went to the cinema to see Legacy I (delibertly) had very little knowledge of what would be in the movie (other then what I had seen in Trailers and all that).
But I must say I got a REAL BUZZ when I saw a young Tron like that appear during the flashback!
I tried (and failed) to get any decent close-ups of Tron has he appeared in Legacy (which mostly involves pausing my DVD player during the flashback scenes), but unfortunatly I cant really do Screencaps.

If anyone can get more images like the one above PLEASE do so, I would really love to see them.

In fact, why not start a new topic for them? abortion pills online http://www.kvicksundscupen.se/template/default.aspx?abortion-questions cytotec abortion