What, you mean like Tron and Yori zombie-fied Alan and Lora? Might make... an interesting fanfic in which Tron and Yori come to the real world and off their users and... Unlikely, though.

No, I think it was simply Flynn bringing a bit of his experience back to the real world. I'm sure Alan and Lora had no idea what he was talking about.


I'll say it again, but I always thought there probably WASN'T a drawn-out digitization sequence in the new Grid. You're in our world, you're in their world, and it's quick. Sam doesn't figure out what happened to him until the Reco shows up... if he'd gone through a long, drawn-out digitization process, he would've known right away.

(In T82, I always imagined your consciousness went into suspension from the first moment of digitization until your body was entirely in the laser. I do NOT want to be awake as my body is slowly vaporized, dunno about all of you...)


I really want the next film to start with a fly-through of a circuitboard, slowly segueing into a city (circuits = streets, capacitors = buildings). The end of T82 and the beginning of T:L use lighted buildings at night for the segue, but I'd like to see it done straight-up..

Kat Wrote:What, you mean like Tron and Yori zombie-fied Alan and Lora? I really want the next film to start with a fly-through of a circuitboard, slowly segueing into a city (circuits = streets, capacitors = buildings). The end of T82 and the beginning of T:L use lighted buildings at night for the segue, but I'd like to see it done straight-up..

Not at all. Nothing in the first movie implies that the bodies or matter of Alan and Lora would be necessary to bring out their programmed counterparts. I mean simply that they zapped out the same way Flynn zapped in, visiting our world the way he did theirs. And that, combined with the extended visuals during the credits, meant that the world was on the cusp of a new revolution as the physical and digital worlds interacted and grew into one.

That was the kind of big ideas the first film was playing with, which the second lacked. The sense of awe and wonder at a future soon to be born that was in the air at the dawn of the personal computer age. I guess you had to be there to really grasp how new and exciting the whole thing was at the time.

As to the sequence you describe about the circuit board as city, hell yeah sign me up for that. I'd love to see it.

Argent Wrote: DarthMeow504 Wrote:Honestly I've thought that was the intention since I first saw the movie in the 80s. Flynn already knew Alan and Lora well, why a special VIP meet and greet for them? They've been friends for years. And considering they are all still working together at Encom they probably see each other every day. Why would Alan say "here comes the boss" rather than saying "there's Kevin now" or some such? Again, they've known each other for years. Nothing of that scene had a feel of familiarity, it had the feeling of a formal meeting for the first time. Your interpretation of the ending is interesting, but I feel it's a bit of a stretch. Alan said 'Here comes the boss' because Flynn wasn't just returning to Encom. He was returning as Alan and Lora's superior. As the rightful creator of the games that Dillinger had stolen (and used to earn himself a juicy promotion), Flynn was finally getting his due from the company. He was the new boss. DarthMeow504 Wrote:And you also can't deny that he says to them "Greetings, programs!" Why would he say that to Alan and Lora? He's never addressed them that way before. However, it is standard politeness protocol in the Grid. We know Flynn can be a bit of a goofball, and he's also coming off of a major rollercoaster ride. In the space of a couple of days, he's gone from languishing in an arcade somewhere to having an epic adventure inside his former employer's corporate network to being not only rehired by said company, but promoted overnight to the upper echelon. He's no doubt feeling exuberant and a little silly at that point, and the way he greeted them just seemed to reflect that to me. I didn't feel there was any implication that they were anything other than who they appeared to be. DarthMeow504 Wrote:So you get a high level meeting with the air of formality, and "Greetings, programs!". And that was the ending, the stinger moment that was meant to make you think and stick with you after the movie. The visuals of the cityscape melting into a Grid like flow of patterned lights helps to convey the idea of the physical and digital worlds becoming one. Yes, they left it slightly ambiguous so it would have that mystery to it that would keep the audience thinking, but to me it could not be more clear. "Greetings, programs!" Welcome Tron and Yori to our world. Nothing will ever be the same. I think the ending was intended to suggest that our own world may be more like the Grid than most of us realize. Is there a higher-order reality above this one, echoing the relationship between our world and the digital domain of Tron and Yori? Do we have Users of a sort as well? If so, what's our relationship with them? What do they want or expect of us? It's not explicit, no, but I think this dovetails nicely with the spiritual themes the movie touches on.

That's exactly what I thought. I feel that this is confirmed when in The Next Day we hear that Flynn had taken to calling Alan and Roy Tron and Ram.

Kat Wrote: DarthMeow504 Wrote:Honestly I've thought that was the intention since I first saw the movie in the 80s. Flynn already knew Alan and Lora well, why a special VIP meet and greet for them? They've been friends for years. I didn't see it as special. I saw two people going to greet their friend on his fancy arrival, on his first day of a new job. They're clearly happy for him, and probably glad to be rid of the former "boss" as well. Alan's statement is lighthearted and joking. (And Flynn and Lora may have been friends, or at least still somewhat friendly, but clearly Flynn and Alan had no love lost between them. They seemed to know of each other, and that was it. Alan saw an immature goofball who used to date his girlfriend, and Flynn saw a guy who now had the woman Flynn still had a thing for, who was easy to antagonize.) As for the "greetings, programs"-- again, it's probably Flynn's idea of a joke, referencing the fact that he's met entities who look just like Alan and Lora (and who Alan and Lora have no idea exist-- I wouldn't put it past Flynn to be the kind of guy who likes a little private joke and laughs when everyone else is confused and refuses to explain). Where do we learn that it's standard politeness on the Grid? I don't recall anyone saying it except Flynn, and even the first time I thought it had an air of sarcasm or humor to it.

^This

DarthMeow504 Wrote:Really? No one else thinks that even maybe Flynn said "Greetings, programs!!" because he was actually, you know, greeting programs? What's the point of that scene, otherwise? If it's just Flynn meeting up with Alan and Lori, well that's a pretty anticlimactic finale. If it serves to show that Flynn took over Encom, again not much of a big deal there as that was pretty obvious from what happened to Dillinger. But man, what if that were Tron and Yori? What if programs were now entering the world of humans just like a human had entered the computer world? Now THAT would be a stunning note worth ending a movie on. The implications for the future of a world post such an event are staggering. Now it is ambiguous, I'll give you that. It -could- be just a mundane meeting between Kevin, Alan, and Lori as boring as that might be. But there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the scene was meant to at least tease the possibility. I've seen TRON many times over many years before a sequel was even contemplated, and I've always thought that scene was meant to make you ask "what if?". To me, the scene left the question hanging to intrigue the audience with the possibility. The extended visual sequence of the traffic and city melting to a Grid-like pattern of lights was more food for thought, implying the digital and physical worlds becoming alike or as one. It raised the question, and then let you chew over it to the accompanyment of thought-provoking music and visuals. Like many ambiguous endings, there may or may not have ever been an official answer. To me it was clearly written to be open to interpretation, able to be taken either way. But again, there is no doubt in my mind that the implication was left there deliberately.

I know the ending you speak of and have seen it when I was 10 years old in 1982. It's still Alan and Lora, not the programs. The reason Flynn would say that is out of excitement and that he's a joker. The guy likes to kid around. So no, it's not Tron and Yori. If that happened, there would be a mass confusion of identification between them and their counterparts.

Plus, he may have suffered PTSD from having experienced the digital world that no one was aware of. Keep in mind, Flynn is a bit of a crazy dude and a daredevil. He was the guy that refused to "grow up" and give the finger to Dillinger, much to his chagrin.

DarthMeow504 Wrote: Pilgrim1099 Wrote: DarthMeow504 Wrote:Really? No one else thinks that even maybe Flynn said "Greetings, programs!!" because he was actually, you know, greeting programs? What's the point of that scene, otherwise? If it's just Flynn meeting up with Alan and Lori, well that's a pretty anticlimactic finale. If it serves to show that Flynn took over Encom, again not much of a big deal there as that was pretty obvious from what happened to Dillinger. But man, what if that were Tron and Yori? What if programs were now entering the world of humans just like a human had entered the computer world? Now THAT would be a stunning note worth ending a movie on. The implications for the future of a world post such an event are staggering. Now it is ambiguous, I'll give you that. It -could- be just a mundane meeting between Kevin, Alan, and Lori as boring as that might be. But there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the scene was meant to at least tease the possibility. I've seen TRON many times over many years before a sequel was even contemplated, and I've always thought that scene was meant to make you ask "what if?". To me, the scene left the question hanging to intrigue the audience with the possibility. The extended visual sequence of the traffic and city melting to a Grid-like pattern of lights was more food for thought, implying the digital and physical worlds becoming alike or as one. It raised the question, and then let you chew over it to the accompanyment of thought-provoking music and visuals. Like many ambiguous endings, there may or may not have ever been an official answer. To me it was clearly written to be open to interpretation, able to be taken either way. But again, there is no doubt in my mind that the implication was left there deliberately. I know the ending you speak of and have seen it when I was 10 years old in 1982. It's still Alan and Lora, not the programs. The reason Flynn would say that is out of excitement and that he's a joker. The guy likes to kid around. So no, it's not Tron and Yori. If that happened, there would be a mass confusion of identification between them and their counterparts. Plus, he may have suffered PTSD from having experienced the digital world that no one was aware of. Keep in mind, Flynn is a bit of a crazy dude and a daredevil. He was the guy that refused to "grow up" and give the finger to Dillinger, much to his chagrin. You're absolutely certain, hmm? And where do you get this inside information? I still believe the ending was meant to be ambiguous and open to interpretation, to spark speculation and wonder in the audience. It doesn't confirm one way or the other, but it certainly teases the question. Remember, TRON was a science fantasy film, all about wonder and possibility surrounding the then-new world of personal computing. It was all about imagination and excitement for the future. The end of the film fit that theme perfectly.

Well, I'm quite certain that the people that Flynn called "programs" in the end of TRON are, indeed, Alan Bradley and Lora Baines. Flynn was just being his crazy self. To them, it may sound bizarre coming from Flynn. Only he, himself, understood the meaning behind that word since he experienced a different syntax of language in the digital world.

It's like a person experiencing life in a new city he or she's never been to before and starts picking up new slang they never heard of. It's very much like that.

So, if you think the ending suggests that Tron and Lora are in the real world while Alan and Lora are running around as well, that's bound to cause huge problems. And secondly, it would be a huge cultural shock to Tron and Lora if they ended up in the real world, unable to function around here. They're programmed to do a certain function and that's it. They can't grow beyond their programmed parameters because, for instance, security and defense is the only thing that TRON knows and is good for.

That's what the Tron franchise is about. The separation of two worlds that act as parallels.

DarthMeow504 Wrote: Pilgrim1099 Wrote:That's what the Tron franchise is about. The separation of two worlds that act as parallels. If that's what you think TRON is about, no wonder we can't see eye to eye. There was no "Tron franchise" in 1982, there was a single film and it's theme was wonder and possibility about the new wave of personal computing. The theme was an unlimited future vista we were only beginning to explore. It was a bright, optimistic vision of hope and imagination. That's why the much darker vision of Legacy is such a contrast. It's hard to imagine you even saw the same movie I did if you think things like "programs are limited to their function". What makes you think that? The programs in TRON were people, they had personalities. Their function was their job. Ram, Crom, Yori, Tron, they all had personalities and emotions and acted like people. There was even a deleted scene where Yori takes Tron back to her apartment, she changes into glowing lingerie and they make love! Hardly a vision of utilitarian programs that only know their function. You don't want to even acknowledge the possibility of the ending being as I interpret it, but again I am certain that the scene was written to allow the possibility of that interpretation. It was a teaser ending, one designed to make you think and leave the theater wondering about the possibilities. The entire theme of TRON was wondering about the possibilities of computers and how they would change the world and people's lives.

Let me say that I was there and I did see the ending as a kid. I'm aware of the deleted scene as I HAVE the rare 20th Anniversary TRON DVD with that scene in it, including interviews with Lisberger and crew about the movie and his pre-production ideas about the next Tron film, until Kozinski came into the picture years later.

The way I saw the ending was that, originally, it was like a merger of the human and digital world. Although it was a night clip pulling out to a wide shot that showed lines of traffic and building lights changing and fading out to black toward the credits. It was to imply that there would be a future of Man and Machine interacting in an evolved manner. Ambiguous endings are a classic method to close the story out, if it's done right. Fortunately, TRON ended cleverly.

But, I also know what you meant by the "Kubrickian" style of wonder with an ambiguous ending. Over the years, my interpretation matured and saw the ending for what it was, Flynn in a good mood saying " Hey Programs! " out of jest, knowing Dillinger is history. And he knew of their digital counterparts.

Some people thought that this was Tron and Yori on top of the building (Yes, I've seen comments online inferring that a few years ago) and I disagreed with that notion. That was way too far fetched and problematic.

From the way the programs were, they were programmed to a certain function. Alan wrote TRON as a security program (or system monitor) to watch the MCP. It was all he could do. After all, he could sense Alan 'calling' him and felt the pull to go to the I/O Tower to get his message.

The film gave us two perspectives. The USER perspective from the ENCOM folks and Flynn and the PROGRAM POV (point of view). That's why we're seeing parallels.

As far as the franchise goes, it was a small franchise with a cult following. Remember, there were action figures, toys, and video games based on the film. Even some books. Even a vinyl record telling the story of TRON, almost like an audio version of the film.

Of course Legacy carries the dystopian contrast, but the theme was repeated in the sequel. They told the dystopian tale twice. The first one was the MCP, the second came CLU 2.0, and the third came "who knows what". Dillinger? MCP 2.0 without the "Kool Aid" head?

Kat Wrote:Can I say that it's always really bugged me, how damn goofy-looking the MCP is? I mean, this is the big bad program everybody's always talking about? Really??? I've always felt the same about a program's purpose, though. I've never really accepted the view that they're automatons who can't think for themselves, but I've definitely always felt their directive is important. They're probably flabbergasted that humans just... do whatever they want. Or don't know what they want to do. That we don't have one set purpose and that's what we do. In the real world, I always thought they'd feel lost, without an unambiguous set of instructions as to what they're supposed to do with their lives.

Kat,

I think if they do the new MCP version, he just might be like one of those high-powered System Monitors/Administrators such as Radia in that form. He would look humanoid but residing in a huge chamber with a throne, communicating with other System Admins.

That's essentially what Clu did with Tronzler the first time... didn't work out so well in the end...

(Well, really, it did, 'cause Clu just brushed Tron off like a fly and got to where he was going anyway, but, let's pretend for a little bit longer 'cause I like Tron.)

Argent / Kat, awesome stuff. This is my first post.

I will preface my comments by saying I saw the original Tron in the theater at the age of 7 and it really impacted me. I have been a fan ever since, we all have been. Just spent the last 20 minutes taking in this entire thread and I have a lot of thoughts but will try to keep it short. Many of the topics discussed here fall under the scrutiny of "it's just a movie" but contemplating the real world explanations is part of the fun & frustration of being a fan of Tron. It is upsetting that Disney continues to treat Tron like the black sheep of the family, IMO, continuing to doubt its profitability or popularity. The closing of the End of The Line Club at Disneyland Cali and the absence of any ride or experience at its parks just solidifies my opinion on this.

W/ regard to the matter used by the laser to materialize Kevin / Sam / Quorra. I remember reading a post (not sure where) that explained that the laser had the ability to use matter already available in our atmosphere i.e. the air to reconstruct the molecules into tissue. The explanation was that all matter is created from the same molecules available in the air. This explanation was good enough for me and explains how Clu and his army / Quorra would be able to materialize. In other words, all the matter that makes up Sam was not "stored' in the lazer until it was needed to rematerialize him but instead his matter was "read" and turned into digital code / his matter disintegrated into the atmosphere....then when he was rematerialized, his digital code was read to "reverse engineer" his body / mind using the molecules available in the atmosphere.

I don't share the opinion that at the end of Legacy, Quorra is simply a figment of Sam's imagination or some sort of digital shadow on his shoulder. However, your premise for this is solid. It does explain why Alan doesn't acknowledge Quorra's presence at the arcade. It also may explain Quorra's absence in "The Next Day." It was rumored she appeared in that originally but when the DVDs shipped only Sam appeared in this scene. Maybe your on to something, but I don't think that is the route the writers will take. Partially my opinion on this is based on comments by Olivia Wilde that she is eager to continue the story and experiment w/ Quorra's introduction to the real world ala Darryl Hannah's performance in "Splash." Let's face it, the major star / storyline that came from Legacy is Olivia Wilde / Quorra and her story will most probably be the focus of the next movie.

I look forward to the future of the Tron franchise however as I stated earlier, I am continually disappointed in Disney's apparent lack of enthusiasm. For instance, up until a few days ago, Disney couldn't even give Uprising fans a clear indication of when the next episode would air. How many handicaps can you put on a series before it is doomed to fail? it is as if Disney's heart is not in it and the bean counters have taken over. If Disney gave Tron half the effort it gave John Carter (a huge failure), it would have a huge hit. Disney seems to want to mirror Star Wars: Clone Wars w/ Uprising (which is awesome, I've been watching it w/ my daughter) however Clone Wars had the benefit of 6 movies over 30+ years of major fandom. Tron has a cult following, mostly children of the 80's. They attempted to cram too much info into one movie w/ Legacy. In my opinion they should have rereleased Tron as a 3D movie prior to the release of Legacy (which should have been shot as a 2-movie reboot / sequel) rather than a 2.5 hour audience catch up to try to attract new fans while attempting to indulge old fans.

Anyway, love the site and this forum. Look forward to more posts.