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 When does Flynn realize he's not going home?


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Kat
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When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Sunday, September, 02, 2012 9:33 PM
The track Arrival came on the iPod today (the one where they arrive at the portal), and it made me think.

The track is not really what you might expect for such a scene-- it's a little more sad, a little less triumphant, than you would expect for that part of the film. They got past Clu, they're going home... or so we think at that point, anyway.

So I've questioned when Flynn knows he's not leaving the Grid. I've got an old fic in which I speak of it (I'll probably end up having to post it here soon so you get an idea of what I'm thinking), but I don't necessarily think that what I thought in there is what the film's writers intended and I'm not even sure I agree with it 100%-- it's just what fit the story and it's one possibility.

I think he understands it pretty early in. I would say he thinks it's more than a possibility when he switches discs with Q-- like, he's not just doing it "just in case." He maybe is aware at that point that he's not leaving, even though he doesn't say as much to Sam. He says to Clu outright when they meet up with him at the portal: "I had a feeling you'd be here." (He must have seen, then, what happened between Clu and Tron, and knows Clu escaped.) He knows there's not going to be any way out.

There's definitely a sense of resignation when he reintegrates with Clu-- you can see him realize that he needs to do it because it's the only way to keep Clu from getting to Sam and Quorra. Whether he knows before that that he's going to need to do it, I don't know. That one scene almost seems like he doesn't, because you sort of see him make the split-second decision to do it when he sees he has no choice. However, he must know before that; if he only thought Sam was going to go out and then delete Clu from the outside... then once Sam and Q were gone, Flynn and Clu would still be left standing there, and it's not like they'd sit down and quietly play Go Fish until Sam does his thing. There'd immediately be a fight-- one I'm not 100% sure Flynn would win-- unless he really still believes he can talk Clu down without violence.

I've thought it possible he realizes (or at least makes the decision to switch discs with Q) on the Solar Sailor, the part when he gets done meditating and opens his eyes and has this enigmatic look on his face. It's possible he has that look because he sees that S & Q get along and he's glad for it, but it also could be that he's glad they get along because he knows they're going to be stuck with each other out there, without him.

I'm not sure if my interpretation is what the writers intended, or even what Daft Punk intended with the track (and it may be a bit much to try to interpret what a film's writers/directors intended from the soundtrack, but perhaps not-- it would depend, I guess, on how much direction they gave DP re: what they wanted for the score of certain scenes. IOW, was it something DP came up with on their own somewhat arbitrarily, or was it according to their own interpretation of the scene, or were they specifically told "this is what's going on, and this is the emotion we want"? Much also depends on the orchestration, as a change in orchestration and perhaps tempo could change the mood exponentially even with the same general melodic structure, so the question of the orchestration also returns us to the above question of exactly how it was arrived at.)


(The funny thing, though, is that he first tries to distract Clu from going after S & Q by saying "remember what you came for." Then pretty much lets Clu take his disc. If he'd fought a bit and made it harder for Clu to take it, perhaps S & Q would've had time to get out before Clu discovered he had the wrong disc, and he wouldn't have had the chance to go for them. So Flynn sort of sealed his own fate by being so compliant-- I'm not sure if he just didn't realize that Clu would figure it out so soon and still try to go after S & Q [maybe he didn't think Clu would try to look at the disc right then], or if he really really didn't want to fight Clu to that extent.

I'm really not sure I agree with his decision to "take himself out of the equation" in that manner-- in fact, I wonder if his obsession with that concept may have been an attempt to tell himself that him giving up on fighting Clu all those cycles ago was okay [see Beat of Your Heart fic re: Flynn and apathy/nonaction]-- but that's a subject for another thread if anyone so wishes, as it's way off-topic for this one.)where to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlineabortion pills abortion pill abortion pills onlinewhere to buy abortion pills online abortion pill pill for abortion online

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1982program
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Monday, September, 03, 2012 11:00 PM
First off, the scene where they arrive at the portal....the music, the visuals, is my favorite part of the movie. Not sure why, but I really love it.

I do believe, like you, that he probably had more than a passing thought of giving Quorra his ticket home early on...maybe even earlier than the Solar Sailor moment. I think Flynn seeing them getting along so well sealed the deal.

I have some issues w/ the "fight scene" between Flynn and Clu at the portal. Once the decision was made to send Quorra in his place, Flynn had to know he would need to end Clu (and himself). Even if Sam got out and attempted his "few key strokes" solution, the time difference between the grid and the real world would mean that Clu / Flynn would be hanging out for hours before any solution same could type in would take place. That is why I don't like the way the movie fades from the final "explosion" of Clu / Flynn immediately to the zip drive necklace of Sam. In grid time, wouldn't it take hours before the download would complete.

Does that mean the grid was completed derezzed or was the explosion / implosion actually Sam uploading the grid to the zip drive??? I think this is a continuity issue that hasn't been dealt with yet.where to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlinei need to buy the abortion pill abortion pill order abortion pill


 
Kat
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Posts: 2,350
RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Tuesday, September, 04, 2012 12:10 AM
1982program Wrote:I have some issues w/ the "fight scene" between Flynn and Clu at the portal. Once the decision was made to send Quorra in his place, Flynn had to know he would need to end Clu (and himself). Even if Sam got out and attempted his "few key strokes" solution, the time difference between the grid and the real world would mean that Clu / Flynn would be hanging out for hours before any solution same could type in would take place.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying. Surely Flynn didn't actually think he could stay behind and not have to fight Clu. Unless he really did believe he could talk Clu down-- which would be naive. Yet when he sees Clu turn and go for Sam and Quorra again, it really does look like that's when he decides he's going to have to die. So it doesn't make much sense.


1982program Wrote:That is why I don't like the way the movie fades from the final "explosion" of Clu / Flynn immediately to the zip drive necklace of Sam. In grid time, wouldn't it take hours before the download would complete.
.

I do actually like that part, but I see where you're coming from. Though I'm not sure hours didn't pass. After all, at some point, Sam and Quorra have arrived, he's paged Alan, she's gone outside, and Alan has had time to throw on some clothes and get to the arcade (since he seems to be there already when Sam comes upstairs). There seems to be a lot they didn't show us (if you've not read my short fic exploiting that fact, you should:
http://www.tron-sector.com/forums/default.aspx?a=top&id=437744 A lot can be done with that lost time and what may've happened during it...)


1982program Wrote:Does that mean the grid was completed derezzed or was the explosion / implosion actually Sam uploading the grid to the zip drive??? I think this is a continuity issue that hasn't been dealt with yet.

Oh, now you're dealing in controversy. It's been debated. Some people, like me, think the whole thing was destroyed (and what you see left is just very basic code-- like your BIOS or boot code-- perhaps a building block for Sam to start over). Others say, "look we see PART of it destroyed, but we don't know that it's everything." Although I never considered that what we're seeing-- that almost singularity-like point of light-- is all of the data being compressed onto Sam's disk. Hrm, interesting thought. I figured what he has on the disk is whatever fragmented info may be left over-- he's just grabbed everything he can and will try to sort it out later. But with your theory, it may not be as fragmented as we think, and perhaps nothing was destroyed-- just removed from that drive. If we were inside Sam's flash drive, maybe we'd see the opposite, and everything would show up there. Oh, man, the possibilities of that.

(And I've thought of doing a fic too around that-- because we don't really know what that huge explosion of light retracts back to, so I thought of doing one where what Sam [and we, at the time of the end of T:L] doesn't know is that when the smoke clears, so to speak, there's Flynn standing there on a bare Grid... which, really, could work, because why would reintegration necessarily destroy him? Change him, maybe, but destroy him?)


I wonder what, exactly, was on Flynn's disc. I know a lot of people here believe it was necessary for exiting the Grid, but I don't believe that. If you remember, the three of them hopped the Solar Sailor to get to the portal. The only reason they ended up on Clu's ship and ultimately taking Flynn's disc back was because the SS was unexpectedly diverted there. Otherwise, the plan was to get to the portal and leave, with no mention of getting Flynn's disc first. If they needed it to get out, they would've planned to go get it.

(Unless Flynn planned all along that when they arrived at the portal, he'd be like "actually, you go and get rid of Clu from the outside, and I [or I and Quorra; who knows if he was planning on sending her out at that point] will wait here.")

So I always just figured there was something on there that would have some sort of info Clu would need for taking over our world.


Ah, now that I think of it, who knows what was going through Flynn's head. They were never clear how, exactly, Flynn might win, I suppose. It sounds like any method of killing Clu would also kill Flynn? (though I wonder what would happen if he got out and then they got rid of Clu from the outside? Surely he wouldn't drop dead next to the desk. What would happen though if he stayed inside and Clu was deleted from the outside? Would Flynn just go "poof" and de-rez where he stands as well? Or is it only reintegration that is fatal to both?) But Flynn's probably the only one who thinks Clu might be defused without taking him out. I wonder how the writers would explain THAT quandary, that essentially there would be no way at all for Flynn to defeat Clu. Hell, the more I think about it, the more it confuses me.
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What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
ChessMess
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Tuesday, September, 04, 2012 7:24 PM
I never got the impression that Clu could end Flynn, and when he threw the disc next to Flynn instead of at him that kind of sealed the deal for me (though I'm sure it was all for dramatic effect, plus if he had then they couldn't have done the re-integration part).

I don't think Flynn planned to reintegrate either, I think that was a a forced move because Sam wouldn't get his slow moving butt in the teleporter since he didn't want to leave his Dad behind. Flynn would have just resigned himself after Sam left to whatever Clu would have done with him, be it Torture ala Sark, imprisonment, or whatever.

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Kat
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Tuesday, September, 04, 2012 11:22 PM
I was assumed that, as others have said on the thread about that subject, Clu didn't kill Flynn because in the end, he couldn't bring himself to do it. I mean, technically, we don't really know what his plans for Sam were either because Sam escaped before we could find out (we assume he meant to kill him, but we don't know that).

(Ah, hubris was the downfall both of the MCP and of Clu-- they get powerful prisoners, and rather than simply taking them out quickly, they feel the need to toy with them in the Games, to show off and prove a point... and in the process, lose them, which eventually brings about the end of both villains.)

You've got a point, though: if Sam had hauled a little more ass, they might've made it out before Flynn had to do the reintegration thing. Quorra has to pretty much shove him into the portal, though even she spends more time standing and gawking than is necessary. Still, I know, we need that big long scene to build the emotion as Sam gets that sickening realization that he's never going to see his dad again, and Flynn can go all sad-nostalgic.

Unfortunately, it was a bit ruined for me when reviewing the screencaps. They show closeups of Flynn and Sam looking at each other:

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=140&pid=153776#top_display_media

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=140&pid=153777#top_display_media

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=140&pid=153787#top_display_media

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=140&pid=153803#top_display_media

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=140&pid=153809#top_display_media

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=140&pid=153821#top_display_media

As if they're having some sort of big unspoken goodbye communion... but then you look at other pics and recall how far apart they are:

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=140&pid=153832#top_display_media

http://www.homeofthenutty.com/movies/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=140&pid=153753#top_display_media

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What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
1982program
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Tuesday, September, 04, 2012 11:46 PM
Isn't it possible that the death of Flynn could mean the death of Clu or death to some piece of Clu's programming that is linked to Flynn? Wouldn't the possibility of that keep Clu from killing Flynn?

Or maybe Clu thought (in that split second as he raises the disk to kill / harm Flynn) that killing Flynn would only hasten Sam / Quorra's exit from the grid. Keeping Flynn alive, lying there, might stall them just enough for him to run at them to get the disk.

These could be reasons Clu did not kill Flynn in that moment.

Back to the zip drive download...my initial reaction of that scene was that the entire grid was "sucked up" into the zip drive. I believe that the filmmaker intended for the viewer to consider that to be a possibility. The explosion almost immediately turns into an implosion toward the light of the portal which then fades into the light of the zip drive. After my initial reaction, I realized that couldn't be the case due to the difference between grid time vs real time. Even if Sam materialized w/ his clothes on and immediately began the upload, give him say 2 minutes total....wouldn't it still take hours before the upload affected the grid environment.

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Loctevus
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Wednesday, September, 05, 2012 7:30 AM
' Clone LIkeness Utility ' Program. C.L.U.

Clu was created by Flynn as the same likeness and looks just like his user. Because Flynn is his user and Clu just a program. Think of projector or a self mirror image. When you look into a mirror you see yourself. That is all Clu was. Self image of Flynn's existance. The fact that Clu had such a hard time killing Flynn was the fact that Flynn himself was Clu. Both were linked in some way weather you want to call it ' Spiritually ' or even ' Scientificly ' . Eather way. They were both one to begin with. Now I can see Clu returning because after all.. * Smiles * he is just a program. Programs that have been long forgotten can turn up somehow within a system. Take a sene in ' Tron: Legecy ' after Sam exited Flynn's computer. He downloaded a file or a program from Flynn's machine. Could be the just the data of Flynn's disc that provides the infomation? Could it be Clu's infomation to stop him from ever being reprogrammed back into the Grid? Honestly we don't know, but what I can tell you. It can play a big part later on during the Tron storylines for all we know.. Clu could return. Programs don't actually get destroyed or lost. They can be repurposed and even reprogrammed back into the system again. Tiime will tell.

As far as Flynn's consern for weather or not he knew that he could NOT go back home. Well... On the grid he was getting older. Waiting his time till he passed. But sence Sam entered the Grid. It changed his perspective and gave him currage to face and challenge Clu and I beleive he knew. That he was not going to leave the grid because. He was already older and knew this was where he WANTED his resting place to be. He faught for what he beleived in being inside the Grid so much. That there was where he wanted to be. But after the curruption of Clu and the ' Purging ' of the ISOs. He knew there would be no way out. Even if he would have made it to the portal. He still may ... or I could be wrong. Have stayed on the grid by choice. Leaving Sam and the company behind so he can face Clu on his own and fix the problem he created within his own system.

Now I don't know if this sound crazy, but... Anything is possible in the Tron universe. And Flynn beleived in that. And so do I.abortion pills online abortion pill online purchase cytotec abortionwhere to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills online

Anything is possible, nothing is impossible, believe and see for yourself....
 
Kat
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Wednesday, September, 05, 2012 8:10 AM
Loctevus Wrote: Even if he would have made it to the portal. He still may ... or I could be wrong. Have stayed on the grid by choice. Leaving Sam and the company behind so he can face Clu on his own and fix the problem he created within his own system.

But he didn't. That was the point. He just hid out from Clu and *didn't* face him or fight him. Now, in my most recently-posted fic, that's just the thing-- he does decide he can't leave unfinished business and doesn't want to leave until it's resolved. But that's only after Sam comes along and shakes things up and gets Flynn's blood flowing again (hell, I've written about that, too). If left to his own devices, he'd stay out there, happily oblivious* in his little world of avoidance.


*Oblivious: totally so, man. I mean, it would seem Quorra heads to the city pretty often-- at least often enough that Flynn's not even remotely surprised when she tells him she was there-- so she must have a good grip of what's going on. I would think she'd even know who Rinzler really is, would see some of what Clu's up to, etc. Yet all of that stuff surprises Flynn. Does she not tell him what she learns when she's there???
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ChessMess
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Thursday, September, 06, 2012 7:52 PM
It could be she just didn't recognize Tron. To other programs (and ISO's I guess) they read the file directory and see the program names and as far as the system is concerned that is the name of the file. But as users we remember what they were before, we can scan the code or look at the file size and know what it use to be. She may have been telling Flynn about Rinzler, and Flynn just took it as another of Clu's henchmen. It wasn't until he saw Rinzler that he knew who he was.

I can only guess Rinzler came after Flynn stopped fighting, otherwise they would have crossed paths before no doubt.

I'm reaching here, I know.

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Kat
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Thursday, September, 06, 2012 9:04 PM
Oh, I definitely think Rinz came along after Clu stopped fighting. But I think that's one error of the film-- unless Clu held him back a long time*, how much time passed between Clu's rebellion and Flynn going into exile? The film seems to imply he runs off right away, but Quorra insists he fought, so apparently not.

*I assume Tron was probably one of the first programs Clu ever rectified, if not THE first. So I would imagine just that would take a fair amount of time.

I have no clue how no one recognized him. I have the one fic that suggests everyone knew but were too afraid to say so (or some thought he was an imposter Clu made-- you wouldn't know since you never saw his face). Flynn seems to recognize him from his circuitry, and i think programs do seem to be largely visual, so who knows... if they intended him to appear otherwise to certain programs, they probably should have shown us that somehow. (Even Sam doesn't recognize the circuitry, and we know HE still has his Tron action figure right in his kitchen.)where to buy abortion pill abortion types buy abortion pill onlinewhere to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills onlinei need to buy the abortion pill abortion pill order abortion pill

What do you want? I'm busy.


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MCPcomputer
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Saturday, September, 08, 2012 2:05 PM

I think he realized it when he gave his Disc to Quorra..

Bu I was a little dissapointed in the last Battle Scene...

I mean I feel CLU and Flynn should have fought a Disc Battle....
like when Flynn fights Sark in the 1st TRON movie.

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"I want him in the games until he dies playing" -MCP
Great Tron 3 blog, with news links and artwork
http://tron3movie.blogspot.com/
 
1982program
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Sunday, September, 09, 2012 10:54 AM
Kat wrote: Oh, I definitely think Rinz came along after Clu stopped fighting. But I think that's one error of the film-- unless Clu held him back a long time*, how much time passed between Clu's rebellion and Flynn going into exile? The film seems to imply he runs off right away, but Quorra insists he fought, so apparently not.
Kat - I get the impression you are not a gamer, correct me if I'm wrong. I've played through the PS3 game Tron: Evolution and it fills in some blanks left from the movie. Spoiler alert (Tron: Evo): The game begins a bit before Clu's confrontation w/ Flynn that is shown in the movie and his battle w/ Tron...shows Flynn running away assuming Tron is dead. The game ends w/ Flynn rescuing Quorra in the Outlands and assumingly taking her away to his hideout. Rinzler does not appear during the game so the viewer / gamer is left w/ the impression that Rinzler comes around later in the story after Flynn is in hideout mode.

Hopefully, Uprising will tell more of this story as well....but we have to wait until October for that. I know from your past postings that you don't agree w/ the direction the Tron story has taken....and I feel the story is getting really complex / problematic. I'm afraid much of the story issues stem from having so many teams working on intersecting stories at the same time...it would be very difficult to make a change to the movie script w/out affecting the other teams working on a video game / book and vice versa.

It must have been incredibly difficult for the writers to not end up w/ a mistake ridden series considering all of these factors. But, it seems, any mistakes that were made have been minimal.
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Kat
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Posts: 2,350
RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Sunday, September, 09, 2012 4:19 PM
Yes, all of that, essentially. Aside from the fact that I'm not knowledgeable about about the games (and who could be, since it sounds like there are at least three, each for a different platform and each with a different storyline if what I've head is true, so unless you own three different gaming systems, you're always going to be in the dark, and I don't think that's right to do to fans), I've sort of ignored them anyway, canon-wise. But you also know from past postings that I feel Disney spread the storyline WAAAAAAY too thin and has made fans chase all over way too much if they want the whole story (film, videogames, graphic novel, TV show, other additional material like The Next Day, etc.), and quite frankly, it's too much for THIS fan to keep up with and try to piece together everything in a way that it makes sense, so I've had to turn a blind eye to some. Especially since some sources provide different info that completely changes the storyline (like whether Tron escaped Clu at the time of the betrayal. T:L strongly implies he didn't... now they're saying he did. Or why Clu went bad-- T:L pretty much says he was a power-hungry nut; T:B says he went too far over legitimate concerns about safety and security. Etc.).

I agree with you that it's getting too complex though, and I think that's why I don't like it. I've said before that I feel, from the explanations and such that we're getting, that they seem to be blindly grasping to explain things rather than think them out, as I find many explanations for X, Y, and Z that a bunch of amateur fans here have come up with are more plausible than what professional writers came up with. (clearly they need to hire us.) And some stuff feels like it was patchworked on (like the animated series). Ah, well. They'll do what they do and no one else is going to get much say in the matter.order abortion pill abortion pill buy online where to buy abortion pillwhere to buy abortion pills online order abortion pill buy abortion pills onlinei need to buy the abortion pill how to order the abortion pill online order abortion pill

What do you want? I'm busy.


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Chaos.... good news.
 
1982program
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Posts: 67
RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Sunday, September, 09, 2012 11:07 PM
Yes, they should hire us as advisors for sure!

It is interesting you mention Clu's motives being unclear. The PS3 game, in my opinion, doesn't help clarify this. Spoiler alert for PS3 game - In the game, you spend most of your time fighting an evil virus named Abraxus. It is unclear to me whether or not Clu created the virus or if he was corrupted by it. Since the server the grid is on is stand alone, it should be impossible for a virus to be introduced....and in the game, it is mentioned that Flynn states it is impossible for a virus to exist there. Yet, it does, whether Clu created it or not.

In the movie, Flynn says Clu has been corrupted, further adding to this confusion. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I mean really. I'm a devoted fan and I can't get this straight. How is the general public supposed to get behind a series that takes so much research? I'm basically continuing your rant here, feels good to vent. order abortion pill abortion pill buy online where to buy abortion pillwhere to buy abortion pills online an abortion pill buy abortion pills online


 
1982program
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RE: When does Flynn realize he's not going home?

on Sunday, September, 09, 2012 11:14 PM
Oh, forgot to add.....Abraxas was formerly a good ISO "Jalen" who became corrupted by a virus, he then was Abraxas who is / was the virus. This is supposedly why Clu wanted to rid the grid of ISO's who he says introduced this virus to the grid. Clu betrays Flynn and the begins to take out the ISOs, but this occurs only after the Abraxas virus has been introduced. So, again, you are left wondering if Clu was corrupted by the virus and turned bad or if he created the virus as a cover to rid the grid of ISOs.

Just wanted to clarify that a bit. Of course, knowing this doesn't make it any clearer.on line abortion pill misoprostol dose abortion medical abortion pill onlinewhere to buy abortion pills online order abortion pill buy abortion pills online


 
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