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lurkinghorror
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Posts: 803
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Wednesday, March, 27, 2013 8:51 PM
Honda Enoch Wrote:But I am not charging for them, I am not making money from them. I am just a Tron fan sharing with other Tron fans. Someone asked for them, so I provided them..

Whether or not you are profiting isn't relevant. The books are not legally yours to share, plus you are in direct violation of the forums rules.

Um. I don't know you. I have no idea who the writer was, and even if I did I wouldn't expect them to be on a fan forum. I still don't know that you are for sure the writer. I did post on here asking if anyone knew where to find them. that's what this thread was to start. Never got a reply. So I continued to do the work myself.

Google the title of the book. You MUST have done that in your search for pirated copies. You will see the authors name easily enough. Google that name: You'll easily see exactly how to reach the author. That's me.

It's the digital era. You want something somebody created? You can easily find them to ask. Worse case scenario the creator will tell you no. Do you have to do this? Of course not. Is it considerably more polite than just taking what you want? Than just telling everyone where to pirate the book?

Yes.

EDIT:

I see you removed the links. I do appreciate that. I would appreciate it further if you did not share the links with anyone who asks. Just point them in my direction (landrywalker at gmail dot com) and I will make sure that they get either physical copies or digital ones - depending on availability.

I have cases of issues 3-6 taking up space in my office, and I would love to get rid of them.



 
lurkinghorror
User

Posts: 803
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Wednesday, March, 27, 2013 9:07 PM
Honda Enoch Wrote:
Kat Wrote:Well, don't keep the secret from the rest of us...

At the request of the so-called writer of the comics, the links have been removed. I still have them and will PM them to anyone that PM's me a request.

"So called"?

:/


 
Honda Enoch
User

Posts: 53
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Wednesday, March, 27, 2013 10:41 PM
lurkinghorror Wrote:Whether or not you are profiting isn't relevant. The books are not legally yours to share, plus you are in direct violation of the forums rules.

Actually, it is very relevant since money is your main hang up on this issue. This is where the problem comes with IP. If I buy a CD it is mine. The music on it is not, but the CD is in fact mine. if I want to share it with my friend It is my property to do so. Same with books, comics videos, ect. In this situation, no I did not buy the comics. I was lucky to find them for free. but once I downloaded them, they became my physical property. I did not claim the art work, story or anything as my own.

lurkinghorror Wrote:Google the title of the book. You MUST have done that in your search for pirated copies. You will see the authors name easily enough. Google that name: You'll easily see exactly how to reach the author. That's me.

Nope All I did was Google search the title I have read all 6 issues and still, even now after this conversation, have not looked on the issues to see the authors name. Why? Because I don't care who wrote them. I didn't read them because of who wrote them. I read them for the story. You claim to be the author. Great.

lurkinghorror Wrote:It's the digital era. You want something somebody created? You can easily find them to ask. Worse case scenario the creator will tell you no. Do you have to do this? Of course not. Is it considerably more polite than just taking what you want? Than just telling everyone where to pirate the book?

Yes.

Have you ever tried to contact an artist online? Even with FB pages it is damn near impossible. You act like anyone can just go on Google and get an artist email address. Find me Stan Lee's personal email address?

lurkinghorror Wrote:EDIT:

I see you removed the links. I do appreciate that. I would appreciate it further if you did not share the links with anyone who asks. Just point them in my direction (landrywalker at gmail dot com) and I will make sure that they get either physical copies or digital ones - depending on availability.

Well, now they have your email. My previous post reflects this as well.

lurkinghorror Wrote:I have cases of issues 3-6 taking up space in my office, and I would love to get rid of them.

What happened to 1-2?


lurkinghorror Wrote:
Honda Enoch Wrote:
Kat Wrote:Well, don't keep the secret from the rest of us...

At the request of the so-called writer of the comics, the links have been removed. I still have them and will PM them to anyone that PM's me a request.

"So called"?

:/

Yes, So-called. I don't know you from Adam. To me you are just some name on a forum.

My other ride is a Light Cycle.
 
lurkinghorror
User

Posts: 803
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Wednesday, March, 27, 2013 11:29 PM
Honda Enoch Wrote:Actually, it is very relevant since money is your main hang up on this issue. This is where the problem comes with IP. If I buy a CD it is mine. The music on it is not, but the CD is in fact mine. if I want to share it with my friend It is my property to do so. Same with books, comics videos, ect. In this situation, no I did not buy the comics. I was lucky to find them for free. but once I downloaded them, they became my physical property. I did not claim the art work, story or anything as my own.

My main hang-up on this is complex. I prefer if people economically support the title. I will provide copies myself to people when possible.

However: I understand the need to utilize free distribution. Titles I own I have been very free with. I don't like seeing piracy links though. Piracy is untrackable. And by that I mean we have no gauge for readership and distribution. If I give you comics it's deductible for me. I'd give them away regardless, but I will take the deduction when possible to. Also: It's just nice to be asked. I like the interaction with readers. I like to share the stories. But if I'm not getting paid, I'd at least like to make the choice directly with who and when to share. And maybe make personal connections in the process.

The larger piracy debate is impractical for us to enter. There are pros and there are cons. But whether it is what is best or not, no one likes having decisions forced on them. Not on either side.

Honda Enoch Wrote:Nope All I did was Google search the title I have read all 6 issues and still, even now after this conversation, have not looked on the issues to see the authors name. Why? Because I don't care who wrote them. I didn't read them because of who wrote them. I read them for the story. You claim to be the author. Great.

I don't think you're reading what I am saying. I said you MUST have Googled the books title. You already said did. I'm not saying you care who wrote them. I'm not asking you to care. I'm saying that if you want a copy, why not take the two seconds to investigate who the creator is and ASK. Point is, it costs you nothing to TRY.

Honda Enoch Wrote:Have you ever tried to contact an artist online? Even with FB pages it is damn near impossible. You act like anyone can just go on Google and get an artist email address. Find me Stan Lee's personal email address?

There is a huge difference between most comic writers and Stan Lee. And yes, given my line of work, I have contacted many comics creators. If you're not talking about 90 year old men, they are usually amazingly easy to track down. many of them are very open about sharing their work. It varies from creator to creator of course., But again, doesn't hurt to ask.

Honda Enoch Wrote:Well, now they have your email. My previous post reflects this as well.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Honda Enoch Wrote:What happened to 1-2?

I just don't have any (well, a few to keep personally). But I do have digital copies on a hardrive here somewhere that I would share under the aforementioned conditions.

Honda Enoch Wrote:Yes, So-called. I don't know you from Adam. To me you are just some name on a forum.

If you read the thread, you will see that another Tron Sector member already mentioned me as the author. I have confirmed this. I'm not suggesting you care who I am or that you should know of me. But if you read the thread, you will have confirmation of my identity.

Not alot to be gained by falsely claiming to be the writer of a comics series you had already bashed, right?



 
Honda Enoch
User

Posts: 53
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Wednesday, March, 27, 2013 11:45 PM
lurkinghorror Wrote:
I don't think you're reading what I am saying. I said you MUST have Googled the books title. You already said did. I'm not saying you care who wrote them. I'm not asking you to care. I'm saying that if you want a copy, why not take the two seconds to investigate who the creator is and ASK. Point is, it costs you nothing to TRY.

YOU are a rare breed. I hate to bring his name up again but it gets the point across. Contact Stan Lee and ask for free copies of any of his stuff. He would laugh at you.

I DID ask. (see first post of this thread). Never in my wildest would I expect the writer of the comic, despite how popular or not it may be, to be on a fan forum. I do not Twitter, and would not bother them on FB. Think about this logically. Go to FB and find Weird Al's page. Message him for a free CD. Let me know what he says.

lurkinghorror Wrote:There is a huge difference between most comic writers and Stan Lee. And yes, given my line of work, I have contacted many comics creators. If you're not talking about 90 year old men, they are usually amazingly easy to track down. many of them are very open about sharing their work. It varies from creator to creator of course., But again, doesn't hurt to ask.

YOU ARE IN THE BUSINESS, so of course it is easy for you. I can contact and get all kinds of free crap from Honda, I am in their business.


lurkinghorror Wrote:If you read the thread, you will see that another Tron Sector member already mentioned me as the author. I have confirmed this. I'm not suggesting you care who I am or that you should know of me. But if you read the thread, you will have confirmation of my identity.

Not alot to be gained by falsely claiming to be the writer of a comics series you had already bashed, right?

I will reread the series. Hard to read in digital format anyway when you have to zoom in to read the words then zoom out to see the graphics. Just was not what I was expecting.

My other ride is a Light Cycle.
 



Posts: 0
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine
on Wednesday, March, 27, 2013 11:53 PM
1) I was able to get the comics legitimately from Amazon. Powell's also is pretty good for obscure material like this.

2) The problem with torrents and downloads: Yes, it's a good way to find stuff you absolutely cannot find legitimately. I've downloaded a few cartoons and foreign films that cannot be found in the US. Yes, I will buy the legit versions if/when they show up. The main issue with it; no one gets paid. That's why the media companies freak out. You guys realize that Wreck it Ralph and Tron Legacy were among the top ten pirated movies of their release years?

3) The other nasty part about copyright laws; they are applied with a $#%# sledgehammer. I've been a fanfic writer for well over 20 years - yes, prior to Internet., These were the days where you might score one story for your fandom a month, and it came in the post in plain brown wrappers. There have been some infamous stories in early fandom about a producer or media company hitting the roof over fanfic/fan art. Disney has been one of the WORST companies to ever deal with in that regard. Granted, the main issue is that they really want to protect that wholesome, family-friendly image.

And fanfic has a really bad reputation because the slash, the sexually explicit material, and the really twisted stuff you couldn't explain to grandma gets the press's attention. Even in the fan community, "fanfic writer" brings to mind some unattractive, never been kissed, pink-collar worker drone well on her way to becoming crazy cat lady who squees over atatomically impossible sex between two boys, or writes dreadful Mary Sue stuff. Granted, not innocent over here. I'd have a hell of a time explaining "Obsidian" to my mom. On the other hand, most of my material is like "1010" or Diamond Sky - stuff that at least tries for original flavor. The other tragedy is when people make fanvids. If the media company isn't clobbering you over use of the clips, then the music company is ticked off for taking traffic away from their official video channel (with all the ads). I see them as a form of commentary/critique/spoof, plus it has exposed me to a lot of bands I otherwise wouldn't have looked at (Within Temptation, Nightwish, Seether, etc.) which leads me to go and spend obscene amounts of my pay on iTunes and used CD shops.

Lurkinghorror, I'll PM you later with my own dose of fangirly worship. Thank you for all that hard work. Really sucks that the Mouse forced you to pay and threw you so many curveballs. But I REALLY thank you. It really is one of my favorite pieces of the franchise, even with the head trippy aspects


 
lurkinghorror
User

Posts: 803
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Wednesday, March, 27, 2013 11:57 PM
Honda Enoch Wrote:YOU are a rare breed. I hate to bring his name up again but it gets the point across. Contact Stan Lee and ask for free copies of any of his stuff. He would laugh at you.

Again, you're pointing to Stan Lee as an example.Most comic people are very easy to access. Try. I'm not saying ANY of these people will give you copies of their work. But I do know you have a better chance of them actively giving you their work if you try.

Honda Enoch Wrote:I DID ask. (see first post of this thread). Never in my wildest would I expect the writer of the comic, despite how popular or not it may be, to be on a fan forum. I do not Twitter, and would not bother them on FB. Think about this logically. Go to FB and find Weird Al's page. Message him for a free CD. Let me know what he says.

Now you're pointing to Weird Al. You gave to understand that you are pointing to extremely famous people as your example. Regardless, why presume the answer is no. Try first.

As for you asking here: I don't look at this forum everyday. But if you had tried, you would have found many very easy ways to contact me directly.

Honda Enoch Wrote:YOU ARE IN THE BUSINESS, so of course it is easy for you. I can contact and get all kinds of free crap from Honda, I am in their business.

But I wasn't always. Unlike Honda or Weird Al or Stan Lee, comics people are mostly lower or middle class income people who enjoy participating with the fan base. I keep repeating something you said: This is the digital age. The barrier between creators and the audience is much easy to reach across now.

Honda Enoch Wrote:I will reread the series. Hard to read in digital format anyway when you have to zoom in to read the words then zoom out to see the graphics. Just was not what I was expecting.

I'm not unhappy with your assessment. It was a very problematic series to work on and the end result was not really what I wanted it to be. That's one of the reasons I like being contacted about it. I get to explain some aspects of how I'm not 100% on the work.



 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,338
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Thursday, March, 28, 2013 8:48 AM
KingJ.exe Wrote:I "went there" for a while in my own head, and I finally settled on something. Programs, however we use them, are MADE to serve the users. Heck, even Ram talks about how nice it is to help people plan for their future needs. They LIKE it. Now the pinch was, what happens when a program reaches the end of its usefulness to the User and is "deleted"? I've come up with two solutions that make me feel good: One, a program, when he is deleted by a user, isn't really killed, but goes into retirement. The data and space he once used is free, and he much less active. It would also explain why our computers STILL get slower after we uninstall a bunch of programs.

Option two is a bit more mean, so to speak. When a program is deleted, it dies, but it dies as a person who has lived a long, fulfilling life. He look forward to the big recycle bin in the sky. It's a natural part of life for a program.

So that's how I reconciled the "programs are 'people' too" dilemma.

I dunno, I suppose I'm just too much of a flaming hippie/bleeding-heart liberal to be very comfortable with the "but they LIKE being exploited/slaves!" argument in just about any context...

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
KingJ.exe
User

Posts: 371
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Thursday, March, 28, 2013 10:31 AM
Kat Wrote:
KingJ.exe Wrote:I "went there" for a while in my own head, and I finally settled on something. Programs, however we use them, are MADE to serve the users. Heck, even Ram talks about how nice it is to help people plan for their future needs. They LIKE it. Now the pinch was, what happens when a program reaches the end of its usefulness to the User and is "deleted"? I've come up with two solutions that make me feel good: One, a program, when he is deleted by a user, isn't really killed, but goes into retirement. The data and space he once used is free, and he much less active. It would also explain why our computers STILL get slower after we uninstall a bunch of programs.

Option two is a bit more mean, so to speak. When a program is deleted, it dies, but it dies as a person who has lived a long, fulfilling life. He look forward to the big recycle bin in the sky. It's a natural part of life for a program.

So that's how I reconciled the "programs are 'people' too" dilemma.

I dunno, I suppose I'm just too much of a flaming hippie/bleeding-heart liberal to be very comfortable with the "but they LIKE being exploited/slaves!" argument in just about any context...
The question becomes if they like it and enjoy their work and what they get from it (Again I point to Ram to say they get something from it), are they really being exploited/slaves? Or are they like any other employee with a good job they love?

I just was struck with how cool and trippy it would be to have a story about a program who DOESN'T like his job and wants to, I dunno, be a nightclub owner instead of a mechanic. THAT would be an interesting story. Now I have to debate whether to try my hand at it and live with my horrible job, or see if someone else would write it and continually be saying "That's not how I would have done it." Ah, the First World problems of merely being an "Okay" writer with no real drive...

Everybody go join End of Line, an awesome TRON Roleplay forum! http://troneol.b1.jcink.com/index.php?
 
REDEYE
User

Posts: 32
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Saturday, March, 30, 2013 3:15 PM
I've got to get my hand on these as I really want to read them.


 
J
User

Posts: 247
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Friday, April, 05, 2013 4:49 PM
They're mind-melting, but totally, totally worth it. Hit Amazon for a legit copy.

It's an entire universe in there, one we created, but it's beyond us now. Really. It's outgrown us. You know, every time you shut off your computer...do you know what you're doing? Have you ever reformatted a hard drive? Deleted old software? Destroyed an entire universe?"

-- Jet Bradley, Tron: Ghost in the Machine on why being a User isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
1982program
User

Posts: 67
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Saturday, April, 06, 2013 11:57 AM
I bought a legit copy of the whole book on Amazon. I was pretty disappointed. I don't understand the logic of paying for the right to write a Tron story then being pushed around by the entity who sold you the rights. Even as a fan, if I had the talent to do this (which I do not), I would just drop the project. If the end result doesn't add value to the series, then you're really not helping. Flops like this can kill a series. You think Disney wasn't paying attention to the sales of this comic....they were, and it could very well be why it took so many years after for the series to be re-launched. How long ago was this written and the "author" still has unsold copies in his office? That doesn't help any of us (fans).

So to recap.....Ghost in the Machine is not canon and was pretty lackluster (IMO) . Tell me again lurkinghorror, why is it you feel people don't have the right to seek out your work online and read it for free? By the way, I downloaded a free copy of 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea to my Iphone while I wrote this....completely legal offered by Apple. So, am I morally corrupt now?


 
waryjane
User

Posts: 1
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 08, 2013 10:35 AM
The very premise of the film TRON was that an evil greedy sociopathic criminal stole the intellectual property of the films real hero.

Here we see it reflected in the forums.
so·ci·o·path
/'soseo?paTH/
Noun
A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

"I don't see whats wrong with taking your property" is a clear lack of conscience.
The persons saying this are sick and potentially dangerous.



 
Kat
User

Posts: 2,338
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 08, 2013 8:10 PM
waryjane Wrote:The very premise of the film TRON was that an evil greedy sociopathic criminal stole the intellectual property of the films real hero.

Here we see it reflected in the forums.
so·ci·o·path
/'soseo?paTH/
Noun
A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

"I don't see whats wrong with taking your property" is a clear lack of conscience.
The persons saying this are sick and potentially dangerous.

Interesting analysis for your first post.

What do you want? I'm busy.


Program, please!


Chaos.... good news.
 
1982program
User

Posts: 67
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 08, 2013 9:01 PM
Did Waryjane just call me a sociopath?!?!?! Simmer down.

First, you must have missed the first part of my post where I stated I purchased the entire book Ghost In The Machine new via Amazon.com. If that is not a legitimate site to purchase products, please let me know. Again, not used, but new.

Second, the point I was trying to make was that the whole pirating craze began when music companies became so greedy that they began charging high-$20 prices for CD's. People who were unable to afford these products found a way to share the products. In the early days of this fight, Metallica / Lars Ulrich became the poster child for fighting pirating. Guess what? That didn't work out so well for them. The artists that have embraced their fans, believe in their work, and put out a good product don't have to fear pirating. Your hope is that your work is valued so much that people purchase the product through a legitimate source. Lurkinghorror is not a legitimate source for Ghost In The Machine. I don't know who he is (he may very well be who he says) and if he was a legitimate retailer of the book he would simply have a site that you can go to purchase it.....not, "hey, find me on Facebook and you might be lucky enough for me to give you a copy." That doesn't make any sense. Honda was not profiting from his post nor was that his intention....having an "author" ask you to take down a post (and the request is complied with) then begin to "school" you on the negatives of pirating is a bit much. No one was pirating anything.

Third, sociopath....really? An argument can be made that Dillinger was nothing more than a cutthroat executive. Besides, Flynn developed his games on a work PC. Nowadays, he wouldn't even have intellectual rights to that property.


 
Honda Enoch
User

Posts: 53
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Thursday, April, 18, 2013 7:12 PM
lurkinghorror???? You around man?

My other ride is a Light Cycle.
 
TRON.dll
User

Posts: 4,312
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Thursday, April, 18, 2013 11:33 PM
waryjane Wrote:The very premise of the film TRON was that an evil greedy sociopathic criminal stole the intellectual property of the films real hero.

Here we see it reflected in the forums.
so·ci·o·path
/'soseo?paTH/
Noun
A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

"I don't see whats wrong with taking your property" is a clear lack of conscience.
The persons saying this are sick and potentially dangerous.

How does this apply to Dillinger at all? If he saw no wrong in stealing someone's property he wouldn't have hidden the evidence away and gone through extra measures to keep it from being found.

Also, there's no need to join our community for the purpose of calling other members sociopaths.


TRON 2.0 (PC) name - TRON.dll
I'll play any mode, but I'm best at LC.



PSN - TRON-dll
XBOX Live/Games for Windows Live - TRONdll
-I have a Wii, DS, and 3DS. PM me to exchange friend codes.
 
Traahn
User

Posts: 3,188
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Friday, April, 19, 2013 2:39 AM
1982program wrote: Lurkinghorror is not a legitimate source for Ghost In The Machine. I don't know who he is (he may very well be who he says) and if he was a legitimate retailer of the book he would simply have a site that you can go to purchase it.....not, "hey, find me on Facebook and you might be lucky enough for me to give you a copy." That doesn't make any sense.

The author of the comic is not a 'legitimate' source for the comic?? Interesting I've met Lurkinghorror before at a comic convention. He was at the Slave Labor Graphics (SLG) booth promoting the Tron comic and other SLG publications. I forgot to ask for his autograph

Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think Waryjane's post was referring to you.


I'm getting out of here right now, and you guys are invited. ------^
 
1982program
User

Posts: 67
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Monday, April, 22, 2013 8:57 PM
Ok, let me just say that I don't advocate stealing anyone's intellectual property. As I said before, I purchased my new copy of Ghost In The Machine on Amazon.com. Of course an author is a legitimate source for a book however many people do not know the author of Ghost In The Machine or how to attempt to reach that individual if they knew the information.

In an effort to be completely fair, after reading Traahn's post, I went to slgcomic.com and looked at all the graphic novels for sale....Ghost In The Machine was not listed for sale. So, as a consumer, if you can't readily find an item for purchase and you manage to find another "free" source, what harm is done by reading it from that source. And, if you are excited about finding it, you share the link w/ forum friends, so be it.

If Waryjane was not referring to me in her post, then I apologize for any misunderstanding.

All friends on the grid! Too few of us to be bantering about small stuff.


 
Honda Enoch
User

Posts: 53
RE: TRON: The Ghost in the Machine

on Wednesday, April, 24, 2013 12:53 AM
Guess lurkinghorror is M.I.A.

I have messaged him on here, emailed him and no reply.

My other ride is a Light Cycle.
 
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