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 A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?


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Tron Fanatic
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A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, September, 15, 2003 1:27 PM
I heard a number of people saying that the Tron 2.0 game, and any film sequels should have shown us a world changed by the development of digitizing technology to open many new possibilities for a storyline. And in one respect, I agree that it could, but the result could prove to be far too chaotic to use simply for a film franchise. Unless Tron became as big as something like Star Trek was 10 years ago (though I wouldn't mind seeing that happen ), it'd be pointless to even bother with. I might love to write about some of it if Tron ever goes in the direction of an 'expanded universe' ala Starwars. The problem with all this is I fear it would become a completely different animal, and stray far away from the spirit of the original film.

Putting that aside though I'll give you my reason as to why it wouldn't happen, and the scenario presented in Tron 2.0 of a world where practically nothing has changed is extremely realistic. If we're assuming that the human world portion of Tron is the same world that we're all living in, I'd give digitization about 100 years... maybe, before it could become mainstream. 20 years is nowhere near enough to get a new technology into the world. And here's why..

(ok, I got REALLY bored the other day)

The video-telephone was first shown in at the World's Fair in 1964. Aside from having a little camera and microphone atop their computer, anybody got one of these yet? Doubtful. I don't know why it hasn't taken off, but it just hasn't, but this is nothing compared to the troubles of getting something like digitization into the common world. Reason #1: money. The biggest factor that keeps humanity developing at a snail's pace.

The best existing example of this fits well, because it's about the same thing digitization is about.. transportation. Time and time again, more efficient carburetors have been developed that get anywhere from 2 to 9 times the number of miles out of a single gallon of gas. Yet not one of these has found their way into a car that we can go out and buy, because the plans get purchased by oil companies for huge amounts of money, and then buried to keep them from being produced. Why? Because they'd lose a lot more money than that if the engine replaced what we're using right now. And assuming the developer of such an engine decided not to sell out, I'm sure certain companies wouldn't be above derezzing the situation by other means...

But this is only one enemy that the technology would have. It wouldn't potentially just kill car engines, it could kill cars, planes, trains, boats.. all transportation as we know it could cease to exist. Postal services would be out of business (they've already tried to ask that email have some kind of stamp/tax to make writing letters & using traditional mail seem less expensive). Hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost.

If that's not enough, health and safety issues would extremely frightening. How much of a margin of error could the computer have for reading a human's structure. Ok, a margin of error of 0.00001% which doesn't sound bad at first, could become extremely hazardous after being digitized multiple times.. (ie making a copy of a copy of a copy). Star Trek's "transporter psychosis" (fear of arriving at your destination looking like a Picasso painting) would frighten many people. Long-term effects on animals would have to be studied for decades before it was even considered for human use. It even has religious implications, because although we could transport any kind of matter, how would we be able to digitize a human's soul as well. And all these fears would no doubt be advertised be the afore-mentioned companies who have everything to lose if digitization became a success.

*takes a deep breath* That's about it. Even without this, personally I'd like to see the Tron universe remain somewhat confined to a few local computer systems at least for the time being until the franchise would be ready to flourish intobuy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra onlineon line abortion pill http://blog.inkstersgive.com/page/misoprostol-dose-abortion.aspx medical abortion pill online

'>
 
IMAGinES
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Posts: 126
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, September, 29, 2003 7:03 PM
Tron Fanatic Wrote:It even has religious implications, because although we could transport any kind of matter, how would we be able to digitize a human's soul as well.

Here's another angle on the angle: If digitization allows people to actually meet Programs - and they start viewing their word processor as a living, breathing human being - someone (probably a five-year-old) will inevitably ask the question, "Do Programs have souls?" I'd hate to see the schisms that could well result over that one...

Imagine the Vatican banning the deletion of programs or the reformatting of your hard drive! No more Anti-virus programs; they murder Programs whose only crime is that they were created by malicious Users! They don't know any better! They all deserve a chance to convert!

And how about Jehovah's Witnesses entering the Electrnoic World looking to convert Programs? Scary, huh?buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

Fortune Favour You,

IMAGinES
 
Tron Fanatic
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Friday, October, 10, 2003 12:19 PM
Heh, I love the TRON universe! The possibilities for expansion are so endless. This kind of stuff is sci-fi at its absolute best - putting new twists on basic human plots.

It'd make for an interesting story though, and would fit in quite well anyhow. At its core, I've always felt that the core plot of Tron is religion. An interesting mix of the Spanish Inquisition combined with the Roman-slaughtering of Christians in gladitorial games, and a "Jesus Christ" who becomes a program, gives his own life to save them, and then 'ascends' back to the human world (Heaven). They even took it so far as to show us at the beginning and the end of the film how easily our human world can look like that of a computer, suggesting that just as we write programs, we also are created beings.

The God to Human and Human to Program relationships are almost flawlessly identical. THe only part that doesn't seem to work which I'd like to find a viable solution to, and the question would definitely come up in your scenario, where do Programs go when they die? Do they have an afterlife? Heaven and Hell?buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra onlineabortion pills how does abortion pill work medical abortion pill online

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Doug Jacoby
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Posts: 0
In Tron we trust?

on Saturday, November, 27, 2004 7:02 PM
Finally a group of people who see it as I do.

Some of you guys must be film students.

Thanks for you're two cents.

LOL


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Doug Jacoby
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Man Vs. Machine, Machine being Man?

on Saturday, November, 27, 2004 7:05 PM
Honestly, 2001, “Robo Cop” and the “Six Million Dollar Man” gave more insight to answers on the Man being machine or vise versa debate.

LOL!

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DaveTRON
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Posts: 5,305
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Saturday, November, 27, 2004 8:13 PM
The issue isn't 'Man-Machine', it's Human Intelligence vs. Artificial Intelligence. 2001 is clearly that concept, but Robocop and The Six Million Dollar man are more about the combination of tech with a man. Different theme altogether.

TRON deals with mans need for and fear of technology. Matrix, 2001, Lawnmower Man (Bad movie) and other films of that type deal with similar themes to TRON.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

DaveTRON

 
Conduit
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Saturday, December, 04, 2004 11:13 PM
I've thought about this, and I've realized that digitization can do a lot more than transport things. 3 facts: 1. Digitization turns physical objects into computer data 2. Computer data can be deleted 3. Computer data can be copied an indefinite amount of times.

If digitizing technology were to come into common use, it would change just about every part of our world. We would no longer have to mine for minerals, to drill for oil, to cut down trees for wood, to farm for food. You could simply take what materials you had, digitize them, copy them, and dedigitize the copies. In addition to that, all the problems with trash would be solved. There would actually be an "away" for us to throw trash to: the recycle bin on our computers. Nuclear waste, one of the biggest problems with nuclear power, would become a non issue.

However, if digitizing technology were to come into common use, the economic effects would be catastrophic. Mining companies, logging companies, oil companies, companies that make tools for all the previous industries, would all be put out of business. The entire agriculture industry would be destroyed. Then you have to factor in the damage digitization would do to the transportation industry that Tron Fanatic talked about. The job loss would be in the millions. Then there's the stock market. What would happen if the price of precious metal stocks plummeted because of their increased supply? Definitely nothing good. The economy would fall into a depression, at the very least.buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online


 
Doug Jacoby
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"This Laser is my life don't blow it"

on Sunday, December, 05, 2004 12:15 AM


Didn't anyone notice that Yori's behavior was different than Lora's?

Through digitization couldn't we program emotions and personalities?

For instance the MCP said "It felt like Flynn".

This would mean that through digitization not only matter but "emotions" can be transmitted and tampered with.

Flynn and Yori kissed in the computer world.

Tron and Yori kissed in the computer world as well.

So emotions exist in the computer world also.

Just as a foot note in the movie The "Matrix" Neo was programmed to do Kung Foo and learn how to fight in the computer world and was reloaded to do so in the physical world.


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Doug Jacoby
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"This is not a company you started in your garage"

on Sunday, December, 05, 2004 12:19 AM

Man being machine is so real in Tron the movie.

How can anyone not see this.

When you are in a "computer" you are not a human being anymore you are close to being a robot or program thus something "automated".

Till this day people do not get it.


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harpo989
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Sunday, December, 05, 2004 9:32 PM
Doug,
Cindy morgan said on the 20th anniversary DVD: (paraphrasing) "Yori is like a more naive version of Lora"
Emotions exist in the digital world, that's obvious. But there is no evidence that we can tamper with that. Ask any programmer if they've ever programmed their program's personality or emotions, and they would probably say no. That or look at you funny, more likely the latter. That means Emotion cannot be affected by digitizing someone. And probably not their appearance, either, that probably has more to do with their programmer and their function. (combined)

And as for the Matrix, The Matrix was a virtual Reality. (or, to be more accurate, 'a dreamworld') -Not a digital world. Thus it really doesn't have a lot of effect on the way digitization works, as they simply Interface their minds with the Matrix. They don't break themselves down into molecules and become programs.

Conduit,
You're probably right. I wonder if the government might reserve the technology from the public, and use it for government 'operations', similar to fCon's work...buy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

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Harpo989: The original fConer. (Now with (0rr[up73d fruit flavoring!)
 
Doug Jacoby
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Posts: 0
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Sunday, December, 05, 2004 10:30 PM


ENCOM's digitization can transfer human "emotions".

Flynn "kissed" Lora.

Flynn "fought" with Tron and RAM to get to the MCP.

Both actions are "emotion" based.

How is it that the human counterparts of programs were so different in the computer world as far as their emotions and personalities?

For instance:

How is it that Yori is a "naive version" of Lora?

Lora was never naive in the real physical world?
(Cindy Morgan's character)

How is it that Clu is less cunning and needs instructions to do things and speaks and acts in a different way than the real life Flynn?

This would mean that the ENCOM super computer / MCP and its laser has the ability to tamper with emotions and personalities.

Since the ENCOM super computer / MCP has this ability what makes you think once a human gets zapped into its computer world it won't take charge to change feelings and persona's?

For instance:

Flynn lost his "memory" while being zapped into the ENCOM super computer.

Evidence that the ENCOM super computer / MCP has control over thoughts so why not personalities and emotions?

Flynn programmed Clu originally while at ENCOM to be robotic and "instruction-like" to only obey the real life Flynn so when captured Clu would be safe if interrogated.

Once Clu was captured the ENCOM super computer / MCP got into Clu's data persona and dragged out its real character that being Flynn.

Further, evidence that the ENCOM super computer / MCP can change personalities.

This is why I think Clu's voice and person changed from a robot to a "human Flynn" one when the MCP tortured and brutally killed Clu.

Its all there please read between the lines it's not hard.
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DaveTRON
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Posts: 5,305
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 12:02 AM
ENCOM's digitization can transfer human "emotions".

Yes, a User transferred into the computer retains their emotions, because they are in fact still human.

Flynn "kissed" Lora.

Flynn never kissed Lora in the film. It was implied that they were once lovers, but no longer. Flynn kisses Yori, who doesn't understand it, but likes it. She later demonstrates the kiss to TRON when they win. Obviously, this implies the Programs can learn new routines when instructed by a User. You might say Flynn, a User, created self awareness in Yori and TRON, Programs, by introducing kissing and emotions.

Flynn "fought" with Tron and RAM to get to the MCP.

TRON and RAM were free programs captured and forced to fight on the Game Grid. They would natually be inclined to want to fight alongside Flynn in his efforts to escape. TRON set it up so they could escape since his programming would be to find a way to defeat the enemy at all costs.

Both actions are "emotion" based.

Neither is emotion based if you look at it like a program. They were just doing their jobs. TRON wanted to get to an IO tower to get instructions. Escaping allowed him to do that so he escaped. RAM followed hoping to get to his home system, and Flynn tags along because he hasn't got a better idea.

How is it that the human counterparts of programs were so different in the computer world as far as their emotions and personalities?

The Programs do not really have emotions like Users do. They understand their jobs. TRON and RAM are in an arena forced to fight. Therefore they fight. It appears emotional to us looking in on the story, but to them it's what they have to do to get back to their normal programming.

For instance:

How is it that Yori is a "naive version" of Lora?

Lora was never naive in the real physical world?
(Cindy Morgan's character)

Yori is a program for running simulations. It's all she does, therefore she does not have the personality of her User because she has a single focus and no need for the emotions and knowledge of Lora in the real world. Yori is limited to the programming Lora gave her.

How is it that Clu is less cunning and needs instructions to do things and speaks and acts in a different way than the real life Flynn?

Because he is a program, not a User. You are assuming that because they are programmed by a Use rthat they are exactly like their User. Nothing in the film backs that up. TRON does not talk like Alan. TRON is stiff and almost militant where Alan is sort of a nerd. CLU has a mission programmed in by Flynn and that is his approach to his life as a Program.

This would mean that the ENCOM super computer / MCP and its laser has the ability to tamper with emotions and personalities.

No, this would imply that the MCP, being a super intelligent program, has developed a level of emotion to go with his intelligence. He also imbues SARK with this emotion and he shows a "love" for SARK by his reaction to SARK's death.

Since the ENCOM super computer / MCP has this ability what makes you think once a human gets zapped into its computer world it won't take charge to change feelings and persona's?

There's nothing to back up this example. Nothing indicates the MCP has this ability because if it did, it would have instantly put Flynn under it's control. Flynn had free will from moment one inside the computer. The MCP only had the ability to bring him into the system, it had no ability to change him.

For instance:

Flynn lost his "memory" while being zapped into the ENCOM super computer.

Evidence that the ENCOM super computer / MCP has control over thoughts so why not personalities and emotions?

Wrong. Flynn pretended to lose his memory, he didn't think it was wise to let on who he was to the Programs beacuse he was in unfabuy viagra onlinehttp://www.bilimselbilisim.com/haberler_detay.aspx?id=42 viagra online

DaveTRON

 
harpo989
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Posts: 0
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 12:29 AM
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Harpo989: The original fConer. (Now with (0rr[up73d fruit flavoring!)
 
DaveTRON
User

Posts: 5,305
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 12:35 AM
Had to!
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DaveTRON

 
harpo989
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Posts: 0
Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 12:38 AM
Yep. good 'ol, "lightning" DaveTRON, Ya never know when he'll strike!
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Harpo989: The original fConer. (Now with (0rr[up73d fruit flavoring!)
 
Doug Jacoby
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 12:42 AM

No, I think you are wrong.

You site no evidences to back up most of your interpretations.

If that's the case then why didn't Tron, Yori and RAM call Flynn "Clu" when they saw him in the ENCOM computer world?

Flynn did not pretend to lose his memory at all.

You have no evidence to back that up.

Yes in the computer world you are a robot or program and be programmed to be such by the MCP.

You have no evidence to disprove this.

None!

The MCP wiped Flynn's memory to keep him running as a game program so he would not recall being a user and possibly kill the MCP.

The MCP did not immediately place Flynn under his control or kill Flynn for

the MCP liked Flynn because:



1. Flynn worked for ENCOM and may have been one of the hundreds of users programming the MCP.

2. Flynn played with the MCP when it was a chess program. The MCP even tells Flynn "remember the time we use to play chess together".



Since the MCP had identified Flynn as a user and a human to which he had played games with before, the MCP logically correlated Flynn to be destroyed on a game grid when zapped into the ENCOM super computer world.


I hope we are on the same page here.

In this case I hope we are on the same book.
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harpo989
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 12:50 AM
Doug Jacoby Wrote:You site no evidences to back up most of your interpretations.
Ah, but watch the movie, and it all becomes clear...

If that's the case then why didn't Tron, Yori and RAM call Flynn "Clu" when they saw him in the ENCOM computer world?
Because they never met Clu. simple as that.

Flynn did not pretend to lose his memory at all.

You have no evidence to back that up.
Then how was Flynn able to remember about things like parking tickets if the MCP wiped his memory? just a thought.

Yes in the computer world you are a robot or program and be programmed to be such by the MCP.

You have no evidence to disprove this.
programs are written by Users. I don't think the MCP ever wrote a program, not even Sark.

The MCP wiped Flynn's memory to keep him running as a game program so he would not recall being a user and possibly kill the MCP.
Assumeing he did wipe his memory, he did a bad job- Flynn remembered everything after a short while, right?

The MCP did not immediately place Flynn under his control or kill Flynn for

the MCP liked Flynn because:

1. Flynn worked for ENCOM and may have been one of the hundreds of users programming the MCP.
Possibly. However The MCP believes himself to be better than the Users, and thus he doesn't have much compassion for them.

2. Flynn played with the MCP when it was a chess program. The MCP even tells Flynn "remember the time we use to play chess together".
Personally, I considered that a stall... I really don't think the MCP had any qualms about digitizing Flynn.

Since the MCP had identified Flynn as a user and a human to which he had played games with before, the MCP logically correlated Flynn to be destroyed on a game grid when zapped into the ENCOM super computer world.
He was destroying all User-believers that way. Flynn was just another program to git rid of to him- that MCP thought quite high of himself, I believe.

Not intending to sound harsh here- I just love debating!

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Harpo989: The original fConer. (Now with (0rr[up73d fruit flavoring!)
 
Doug Jacoby
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 1:03 AM


You site no evidences to back up most of your interpretations.

You have no evidence to back that up.

Flynn regained his memory because he was a user and had the ability to over power the MCP programming.

Clu was in the ENCOM computer world before. In the movie Flynn speaks to Clue recalling many missions and assignments he had sent him in on while at ENCOM before. At one point he mentions to Clu a "phone bill problem to resolve".

Evidence that Clu existed long before in the ENCOM computer world.
Since Clu is apart of the same mainframe computer and can get back in it Clu
knows Tron, Yori and RAM.

It's all the same computer is it not?

Flynn worked with Dillinger at ENCOM years before because when Flynn tells his story he states "Okay lets set the way back machine" indicating many years have gone by since his relationship with co worker Dillinger and ENCOM perhaps to a time they where teenagers.

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harpo989
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 1:11 AM
One quick reply:

Doug Jacoby Wrote:You site no evidences to back up most of your interpretations.

You have no evidence to back that up.
I'm basing this off the movie, not this site or any other.

Flynn regained his memory because he was a user and had the ability to over power the MCP programming.
That still doesn't explain his rather 'user-ey' behavior right after he rezzes in.

Clu was in the ENCOM computer world before. In the movie Flynn speaks to Clue recalling many missions and assignments he had sent him in on while at ENCOM before. At one point he mentions to Clu a "phone bill problem to resolve".

It's all the same computer is it not?
Actually, no. Clu was on Flynn's personal computer. he only entered ENCOM the one time seen in the movie (that we know of) Flynn's certantly used Clu before, but on systems other than ENCOM.

Flynn worked with Dillinger at ENCOM years before because when Flynn tells his story he states "Okay lets set the way back machine" indicating many years have gone by since his relationship with co worker Dillinger and ENCOM perhaps to a time they where teenagers.
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Harpo989: The original fConer. (Now with (0rr[up73d fruit flavoring!)
 
Doug Jacoby
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Re: A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?

on Monday, December, 06, 2004 1:30 AM


I think you are wrong.

You site no evidence once again.

"Harpo wrote"
That still doesn't explain his rather 'user-ey' behavior right after he rezzes in.

What do you mean?

If Flynn knew he was a user when rezzing in he would have beat up those guards with his super user powers.

Would he not?

Clue must have been written at ENCOM with the ENCOM super computer since Flynn worked for ENCOM since a possible teenager with co worker Dillinger his super hacker friend.

There is no way Flynn could have written such a great sophisticated program as Clu to break into the ENCOM super computer at home.

No way!

I think in the movie Flynn is using an Apple 2 with a "phone hook" for a MODEM.

LOL

I personally think tin cans with a string would have been faster even back in the 1980's

Talk about a dinosaur.


Hey I like debating.

Lets take this into this websites chat room already!

Choose your chat room fellas!
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 A future re-shaped by digitization.. possible?