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matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 23, 2006 8:00 PM
Well, that font tread is good info, and I'm glad it got hashed over now so I won't have to do it when the time comes...

Crap, that reminds me, I need to mow my lawn too.

I read that thread you posted with your ortho "all views" of the lightcycle (I can't want to get started on the tank!) After you make your modifications to your lightcycle, could you make an updated all-sides view so I can compare?

I'll get mine up in the next day or two.

Matthew
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matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Tuesday, July, 25, 2006 1:51 PM
Another quick (7 second) animation. I was messing with the idea of a transport for vehicles. It's kind of a cross between a de-res square and the transport used for programs, only horizontal instead of vertical.

I think it needs to be a little faster. The opening of the transport square is too slow, and the "flash" of the lightcycle just after the second transport pass needs to be sooner and faster. The effects are cheap right now as I learn what looks good and what doesn't.

Technical info for anyone who wants to know. I model and animate with Realsoft 3D (
http://realsoft.fi). This animation is 7 seconds at 30 FPS (210 frames), rendered at 640x480 as and AVI with MPEG4 compression. Total size is about 1MB. Total render time with the high-quality settings was 12 hours, so that's about 3.4 minutes per frame average. The long render time is due to all the fade I used to make the wireframe, plus the transparency in the transport grids.

Here is the link:

http://digitalstratum.com/images/tron/transport_1.avi
Here is a frame from the animation to entice those who were thinking of not downloading and viewing it...


Matthew
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wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Tuesday, July, 25, 2006 4:11 PM
matthew180 Wrote:
http://digitalstratum.com/images/tron/transport_1.avi

Nice... I like the effect alot. For the flash effect I'd add some glowing media around the lightcycle itself. It looks to me like you are currently just playing with the color of the lightcycle.

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Boingo_Buzzard
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Tuesday, July, 25, 2006 4:22 PM
matthew180 Wrote: The effects are cheap right now as I learn what looks good and what doesn't.

Hrm. I dunno. I think it's pretty sweet!

Total render time with the high-quality settings was 12 hours

Holy crap, Batman! 12 HOURS!?

Awesome job!
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matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Tuesday, July, 25, 2006 4:58 PM
wwwmwww Wrote:Nice... I like the effect alot. For the flash effect I'd add some glowing media around the lightcycle itself. It looks to me like you are currently just playing with the color of the lightcycle.

Carl

It's a parameter call illumination, basically causes an object to appear as if it has light hitting it, even if there are no light sources at all, or any light falling directly on the object. I was looking for more saturation, but I'll have to do that a different way, since as you mentioned, it just looks like the color is changing.

Matthew
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matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Tuesday, July, 25, 2006 5:01 PM
Boingo_Buzzard Wrote:Hrm. I dunno. I think it's pretty sweet!

Thanks! I certainly would like to get the time down for sure, but that will have to come later.

Matthew
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wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Friday, July, 28, 2006 6:58 PM


 
wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 2:20 PM
Here is that last primitive that is causing me problems. (seen in the orthographic view as red)


Its a very very small primitive that I think I shouldn't need at all. At the moment it's needed to fill out just the smallest part of the rear fender. Here is a close-up.


I can think of about a dozen ways to get rid of it, but most have negeative effects on lines elsewhere on the lightcycle. Matthew I don't believe you have this primitive in your model and your's looks good to me. Could you check a few of my dimentions in my model that effect this area and compare them with yours? While I'm waiting I've got a few ideas I'll try as well.

Carl

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zook_one
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 4:08 PM
Carl,

Thanks for that .pov file I have been using your older .pov file to reconstruct your cycle in my modeling program. I started with these smooth mesh primitives but it was going to cause me issues when I exported the model to Studio max so I started to create medium poly count mesh. I found this little area of issue also.

(your help has allowed my to creat my new avatar)

I'm still kind of tweaking my model, it has taken me so long it is ridiculous. Key stoke entires for element postions is tough.

I still have to revist the same area you have in question but you should be able to just adjust the cylinders angle or vertical postion so that the centroid of the Cylinder is tangent with the body of the lightcycle right at the left edge where it is sheared. Right now it is striking tangent a hair to the right.

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wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 5:21 PM
zook_one Wrote:you should be able to just adjust the cylinders angle or vertical postion so that the centroid of the Cylinder is tangent with the body of the lightcycle right at the left edge where it is sheared.

It's trivial to lower the cylinder, however that effects the overall hight of the fender in a negative way. It also causes the inside of the fender to intersect the rear wheel. The blue arch on top then comes back further then it should, etc. In short any trivial change effects many other things in complex ways.

The angle of the cylinder is 30 degree with the horizontal and I really like that angle so I don't want to change that.

That said I do still have some ideas and if they play out the way they do in my head at the moment I think they will actually improve things.

I'll post some more images as I play around...
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matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 5:30 PM
Sorry, I've been out for the last 4 days at AirVenture in Oshkosh, WI. Very cool! Anyway...

wwwmwww Wrote:I can think of about a dozen ways to get rid of it, but most have negeative effects on lines elsewhere on the lightcycle. Matthew I don't believe you have this primitive in your model and your's looks good to me. Could you check a few of my dimentions in my model that effect this area and compare them with yours? While I'm waiting I've got a few ideas I'll try as well.

Haha, actually, look at this:


Our models are *very* close, closer than you might believe! I think this error showed up on my model when I recently changed my canopy cylinder to be the same size and center point as yours. The cylinder that makes up that part of the chassis would have to be slightly larger:


That cylinder has to be large enough to intersect the fender cylinder at the 90 degree mark around the fender. Also, after looking a little closer, I'm not so sure that the original lightcycles have a curve in this part. Look at these images:



Also, in the all-view image, the section from the fender to just under the canopy shoulder looks as if it may actually be straight (it does not look parallel to the canopy), which would make correcting this error easier (and remove another primitive from the model!) We need to figure out if it is really a curve or straight.

Matthew
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wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 5:54 PM
matthew180 Wrote:The cylinder that makes up that part of the chassis would have to be slightly larger:

That cylinder has to be large enough to intersect the fender cylinder at the 90 degree mark around the fender.

Again, that's another trivial change that could be made. However again that causes the blue arch on top, the canopy, to appear thinner in this area then it should. Also the area of the canopy shoulder that is intersected is effected if you raise the radius of the cassis component as you suggest.

matthew180 Wrote:Also, after looking a little closer, I'm not so sure that the original lightcycles have a curve in this part. Look at these images:

Also, in the all-view image, the section from the fender to just under the canopy shoulder looks as if it may actually be straight (it does not look parallel to the canopy), which would make correcting this error easier (and remove another primitive from the model!) We need to figure out if it is really a curve or straight.

Interesting observation, that very thought had crossed my mind today as well. It would remove another primitive.

By all-view image are you refering to this one?


I have to say... that does appear to be a strait line. Time to pull out my TRON DVDs again. Is that part clearly shown in the assembly video?

Carl
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wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 6:53 PM
Ok... my first idea didn't work too well. I thought I could lower the center of the cylinder and increase its radius such that it would have the same height. I lowered the cylinder by a value I called adj in this code:

http://www.wwwmwww.com/Matt/adj.pov
To show how everything is tied together that value had to be inserted 20 places in the code to keep everything else where it needed to be. And it almost worked. It looks GREAT from the side.


not so great from the rear.


Now to try a few more ideas...
Carl

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matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 7:32 PM
wwwmwww Wrote:By all-view image are you refering to this one?

What I was calling "all-view" was this image:


But it has already been posted several times in this thread, I was just trying to avoid posting it again.

If you look close in the area circled by #6, it looks like the white chassis edge is not exactly parallel to the canopy top, which would indicated that it is either a straight edge or a different cylinder size and placement. It is really hard to determine though and could be the perspective messing with how it looks.

I don't remember if the assembly video on the DVD shows that area clearly or not, I'll have to review it again. Then again, the original *could* have the error as well... I have found another error in the MAGI model, shown here:


You can see the trim does not intersect the engine and there appears to be a gap (rare look inside the lightcycle!) Of course this would mean our models are incorrect...

Matthew

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matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 8:07 PM
I was just looking at this image again and it looks like your chassis is too wide.


Is this something you just changed? The transmission and lightjet should not be wider than the trim. This image of your previous model looks more correct:


Matthew
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wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 8:52 PM
matthew180 Wrote:I was just looking at this image again and it looks like your chassis is too wide.

Is this something you just changed? The transmission and lightjet should not be wider than the trim. This image of your previous model looks more correct:

Matthew

Yes... that was the result of the changes I made in the adj.pov file I posted above. And yes I certainly agree that its too wide. Note I said "NOT so great from the rear". I'll be changing it back...

The more I look the more I'm convinced the part in question is a strait line instead of a cut from a cylinder. Personally I'm not sure if I like that... I tend to feel that area should have a curve that matches the rest of the bike. It "feels" more natural that way... however to get all the other pieces to fit one may HAVE to use a strait line to get the correct/accurate look.

I'm still thinking...
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wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 9:14 PM
matthew180 Wrote:
What I was calling "all-view" was this image:

Ok... Yes, it looks strait to me there too. Hmmm...

matthew180 Wrote:
But it has already been posted several times in this thread, I was just trying to avoid posting it again.

Sorry... my bad.

matthew180 Wrote:
If you look close in the area circled by #6, it looks like the white chassis edge is not exactly parallel to the canopy top, which would indicated that it is either a straight edge or a different cylinder size and placement. It is really hard to determine though and could be the perspective messing with how it looks.

Well... that line is in a plane perpendicular to the direction the camera is pointing. The length of that line relative to objects not in that plane can be affected by perspective but I don't think the shape of the line itself should be.

matthew180 Wrote:I don't remember if the assembly video on the DVD shows that area clearly or not, I'll have to review it again. Then again, the original *could* have the error as well...

Its not in the assembly video... I just checked myself.

And personally I'd rather not copy something that is an obvious error just for the sake of being accurate. For example where the edge trim meets up with the torus of the canopy shoulder its usually not cut very well. It is cut much better is some places like here for example:


And I just noticed the assembly video also looks correct. Its unfortunate that all the real close-up shots from the film seem to have a very jarring edge.

matthew180 Wrote:I have found another error in the MAGI model, shown here:

You can see the trim does not intersect the engine and there appears to be a gap (rare look inside the lightcycle!) Of course this would mean our models are incorrect...

I'm not sure what's going on there... looks more like a rendering error then a modeling error to me. Maybe something odd is going on with the shadows in that area... its very hard to tell. Atleast I don't see what I would consider to be a gap.

Carl
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matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Sunday, July, 30, 2006 10:25 PM
wwwmwww Wrote:Sorry... my bad.

Oh, I was not complaining, no apology necessary.

wwwmwwwWrote:And personally I'd rather not copy something that is an obvious error just for the sake of being accurate. For example where the edge trim meets up with the torus of the canopy shoulder its usually not cut very well. It is cut much better is some places like here for example:

And I just noticed the assembly video also looks correct. Its unfortunate that all the real close-up shots from the film seem to have a very jarring edge.

I agree, some of the errors may be rendering, very odd angles and such may reveal something strange, but I think these are a result of the technology of the day and we should not reproduce them, since they are afterall, errors.

I'm not sure about the tail end of the canopy shoulder. Like you said, about 50% of the images show it rounded off, others show it cut. I think this should be left up to the model creator to decide which they like.

wwwmwww Wrote:I'm not sure what's going on there... looks more like a rendering error then a modeling error to me. Maybe something odd is going on with the shadows in that area... its very hard to tell. Atleast I don't see what I would consider to be a gap.

Carl

Could be a rendering error, I just ran across it when I was single frame stepping through all the lightcycle footage. It looks odd for sure, but most likely an error and nothing we should try to reproduce.

Matthew
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wwwmwww
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Monday, July, 31, 2006 8:31 AM
matthew180 Wrote:I'm not sure about the tail end of the canopy shoulder. Like you said, about 50% of the images show it rounded off, others show it cut. I think this should be left up to the model creator to decide which they like.

Fair enough.

matthew180 Wrote:Could be a rendering error, I just ran across it when I was single frame stepping through all the lightcycle footage. It looks odd for sure, but most likely an error and nothing we should try to reproduce.

After staring at that image more I think I finally see what is going on there. If I'm right, I was wrong earlier and it IS a modeling issue and I think I can copy it. Give me a chance to play with my model a bit more and I might be able prove it one way or the other.

Carl
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matthew180
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Re: MAGI's CSG Primitives?

on Monday, July, 31, 2006 10:33 AM


 
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